Lifetime quest finally paying off!

@FranklinD
Good point. I deleted the sidetrack entry. Do you know what would be neat? If what Sound-Advice is advocating was shown like Sarah Willis (French horn player) was. That way we can actually SEE what's going on behind the aperture.
The discussion has been loosely based on a preponderance of the evidence and the vast majority is either showing or discussing the tongue's importance when changing registers. That doesn't mean Sound-Advice is completely wrong. It suggests that there's a lack of data to support his claim. I still stand by my point that the tongue is paramount for changing registers but, it would be nice if Sound-Advice could dig up something more that could support his claim that "Since shifting over to the radically different Stevens approach I've found a tongue arch to have no effect on producing intervals at all."
I would watch a video that shows a person (like Sarah was shown) keeping their tongue flat on the mouth's floor and changing registers. I would be highly interested in a video like that. We should never get so old that we are unwilling to look and critically think about something new. Notice I said look and critically think. I didn't say "adopt the idea".

Kehaulani

As I understand it, the Stevens' embouchure relies on the size of the embouchure opening and the direction of the airstream. Flat tongue in the process. It works for some. Other schools integrate the tongue in different tessituras, similar to the range change of the tongue when whistling. Is it not possible for both systems to work?

Dr GO

@Dr-Mark said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

I still stand by my point that the tongue is paramount for changing registers... I would watch a video that shows a person (like Sarah was shown) keeping their tongue flat on the mouth's floor and changing registers.

I so agree. I believe this is a key feature to optimize this task.

As I understand it, the Stevens' embouchure relies on the size of the embouchure opening and the direction of the airstream. Flat tongue in the process. It works for some.

Embouchure opening = The aperture, right?
All notes are determined by the size of the aperture. Here's where I have a rub with a constantly flat tongue. The larger the aperture, the easier it is to get things buzzing. The higher we go, the smaller the aperture. Now, imagine how small an aperture needs to be to sound a DHC. Along with being bloody small (which means that the hole will be harder to buzz), a person needs to use less air to play it. In addition, the air used needs to be (for lack of a better term) turbocharged. How do we do that? You've heard of the thumb on the water hose analogy as it applies to air use? Well, think the same thing but it happens BEHIND THE APERTURE. As we lift the tongue, the same volume of air is made to travel through a smaller space in the mouth. That's part of the turbocharging.
For example; blow like you are whistling but begin with your tongue at the floor of the mouth and slowly lift your tongue to the roof of the mouth. As you do this, listen to the air and don't change the size of the aperture. You can even put your hand up to your aperture and feel the air speed up. The next area of turbocharging the air would be how the abdomen is engaged but you'll have to wait since its about to become a made for TV movie on the Hallmark Channel.

Dr GO

@Dr-Mark said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

Embouchure opening = The aperture, right?
All notes are determined by the size of the aperture... The higher we go, the smaller the aperture. Now, imagine how small an aperture needs to be to sound a DHC. Along with being bloody small (which means that the hole will be harder to buzz), a person needs to use less air to play it... How do we do that?

Pv = nRT. While air is not an ideal gas, it has a similar relationship when you solve for volume: v= nRT/P. When volume is increasing (in the numerator) on the left, that means pressure (p), in the denominator on the right needs to increase to support a smaller volume.

In medicine, we do this with PEEP... Positive End Expiatory Pressure. In the intensive care unit (ICU) we use machine settings to set the pressure/volume relationships and have a special knob for PEEP. As individual persons, we can generate this PEEP with the correct intercostal thoracic muscles and abdominal muscle against the back pressure of the mouth volume controlled BY THE TONGUE.

PLEASE READ THAT LAST COMMENT CAREFULLY. I AM NOT SAYING WE NEED TO BLOW HARD. That will defeat the purpose, as you need to RELAX the lips for a higher frequency vibration which is a function of the embouchure and mouthpiece pressure the performer chooses.

For the past 4 years, I have put in about an hour of weight lifting and isometric exercises EVERY DAY to accomplish this task. It works. By developing (and feeling) that pressure reserve (PEEP) behind the air column generated by chest and abdominal muscle I can play more relaxed from all the musculature in the pharynx, that includes tongue, facial and lip muscles.

Waiting for ROWUK to chastise me for yet another method to play lead, but this is not just for lead playing, it has produced for me a more relaxed voice at whatever range I play in. All those years in the ICU and using PEEP to bring patients back from certain doom works in health as well.

By the way, PEEP is THE DRUG physicians are using to keep Covid-19 patients alive in the ICU. Before I get criticized on this, I challenge any person to reply to first spend a devoted year of a residency training managing ICU patients and experiencing how these concepts work. Walk a year in my shoes, and you will understand why this concepts works, OK?

@Dr-GO said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

For the past 4 years, I have put in about an hour of weight lifting and isometric exercises EVERY DAY to accomplish this task.

Do you think that increased good health is a confounding variable in this situation? Chances are, food tastes better, sex is better, exercise is fun, and your general outlook on life is in the positive category. I don't disagree with what you're saying. We don't have to blow harder but somehow the air needs to be sped up (turbocharged) in order to get such a small hole to buzz. Remember, we're talking about a hole about the size of a gnat's ass, not a hole that can almost hold a pencil like when we play middle C. I think the point you're making is that with conscious effort, a person can play really high and it not need to feel like or sound like grunts per note. Its more like yoga. My daughter gets frustrated that she can be practicing and I'll come in and play a DHC on the spot without warming up. Are my abs activated? You bet! But the point is, high notes are a technique that utilizes the tongue and not based on physical exercise. Exercise is a very important part of staying healthy but when a person sees Vince DiMartino, Bobby Shew, Jon Ruff, or me, (all chubby) and then hear them in the upper register, there's something more at work than being healthy. Healthy doesn't suck, but its not a prerequisite to play in the upper register. On a side note, you should be commended. At the ripe age 85, you are doing great.

ROWUK

@Dr-GO I do not think that I am selling myself short. All of my students get a „well rounded“ education and most of them get opportunities to gig with me (for money). The aspiring lead player will not get the opportunity to gig with me in that genre. I still play the occasional studio or jazz band gig, but never with the opportunity to bring a student along.

My personal history has been one of opportunity. I send my students where they can get „opportunities“. If they want to play lead, they can still be my students, but they benefit greatly with direct exposure to real lead players.

I do consider the requirements for an orchestral first trumpet to be far different than a first trumpet in a jazz band in regards to tone, chops management, timing, ability to move in and out of the orchestral fabric. In addition, the improvisation that they get from me is for the rennaissance and baroque periods, not 20th/21st century jazz.

Sound Advice

@Dr-Mark

At one time I both developed the "syllables for register" technique. Maggio spent a lot of time developing these principles in his book. And the Maggio system was my first book I studied related to high note development.

Initially I found it helpful to use a different syllable when changing from low to the middle register. Particularly when slurring those kinds of intervals found in bugle calls. Ie
Low C to G or third space C
Second line G to third space C & E top space. Again, this all applied to when I used the Maggio model of embouchure.

Other places where I'd used a tongue arch movement was when playing some of those tricky Baroque style trills. As is common in Bach and even the Haydn Trumpet concerto. Like the one that trills in between the D natural to E natural above. I'd sorta "wag my tongue" in concert with the finger movement and this helped me perform the trill. Mercifully I soon got an E flat trumpet that changed the interval a fourth lower to just A natural to B nat. Regardless, when I played the Maggio system I would use syllables in the lower and middle registers. In order to facilitate distinct interval shifts. However as far as using it in the extreme upper register?

Not so much. By the time I'd hit a high C or better I then reasoned that my horn, mouthpiece and embouchure already had a lot of resistance. Plus blowing say an F above High C just seemed to involve keeping my vibrating surfaces loose, the other related embouchure/face muscles FIRM and putting a ton of air pressure behind all of this. It seemed both unhelpful and illogical to raise my tongue just because I was playing above the staff. Maybe I'd use it a bit while trying to copy Bill Chase's fantastic "shakes" but otherwise? I never employed it for a register change.

Then while early in my college career I ran into another music major who'd studied directly with Roy Stevens. His name was Richard. He and I worked together. Sharing notes and ideas. I admired his infinite range. As he played a solid G/double C with his horn RESTING ONLY ON THE PALM OF HIS HAND!

And he admired my big sound on high F and G. I believe that my friend played loud enough for most ensemble work. Even lead. But it wasn't commanding. Not at the time. I heard tell that he eventually fixed all of this and became a good lead player. With endless endurance and infinite register.

Way back when he told me that Roy Stevens did not use the tongue arch or syllables. Richard went on to say that after he had switched over to the Stevens method that he too found no value at all to raising his tongue. Instead of doing this he just did as Roy directed him and merely raised the pressure of air in his lungs. That and then firmed up his mouth corners simultaneously. Or he'd raise the air pressure and mildly close his teeth.

The closure of teeth in the Stevens system is largely discouraged except as absolutely necessary. 1/4 of an inch separation can take the Stevens system player from Low C to E/high C. That's what I was told and the book directs. Only when well above high C does the Stevens embouchure require a slight jaw closure and the teeth become separated by 3/16ths of an inch.

I've been mentoring a young man on lead playing and just a couple weeks ago we had him experiment with the Stevens system. OMG! The boy seems a darn good fit for it. He's not just squeaking "statics" or "cyclonics" as the book directs but actually popping some fine high notes. However?

He tends to close his teeth when playing above High C. The tone always cuts out of course. The Stevens system is about identifying defects in embouchure and air supply. Then correcting them. So I had my young friend play his G/high C again & again until he stopped closing his teeth. Once he conquered this natural mistake? He started blow high G's at will. Up nearly another octave too. Not bad for a chop system he had never tried before last Valentine's Day!

As per my own relationship with Stevens? I too have found the tongue arch absolutely unnecessary. Not even helpful.
Best regards all!

@Sound-Advice said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

I too have found the tongue arch absolutely unnecessary. Not even helpful.

Just damned. You have to have more than a personal experience to convince or support your claim ESPECAILLY on this site. You'll get eaten alive. There are engineers, scientists, researchers, scholars, physicists, physicians, professional trumpet players/instructors, who will ask serious questions and just like any other sport, if they sense
you fumbling, they will hammer the shit out of you. My advice? See if you can find solid evidence that supports your claim that; "the tongue arch is totally unnecessary. Not even helpful"
Possibly an fMRI or X-ray (like the Sarah Willis post within this discussion) that can show a person ascending and descending on the trumpet and the tongue staying flat on the mouth's floor.
I still contend that it can't be done and there's a serious preponderance of the evidence that supports the claim that the tongue is of paramount importance when going from register to register. Give us something other than regurgitating Stevens and your personal experience. The more solid evidence you have, the less chum you're putting in the water. Otherwise, you'll get eaten alive. This is not the proper site for bullshit because you, me, or anybody will get called on it. Oh, and by the way, saying "this isn't bullshit!" is well....bullshit. Think like a scientist or a top journalist.

Kehaulani

I had a friend who used to say, "What will this mean to a nude lady riding a white horse ten years from now?".

Dr GO

@Kehaulani said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

I had a friend who used to say, "What will this mean to a nude lady riding a white horse ten years from now?".

Why a white horse? There would be more contrast against a dark background, yes?

@Kehaulani said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

"What will this mean to a nude lady riding a white horse ten years from now?".

It means she can sit upon her horse and still have both cheeks of her ass intact.

Dr GO

@Dr-Mark said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

@Kehaulani said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

"What will this mean to a nude lady riding a white horse ten years from now?".

It means she can sit upon her horse and still have both cheeks of her ass intact.

Does that define bareback?

@Dr-GO said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

Does that define bareback?

Only if she's been bad.

Kehaulani

@Dr-GO said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

Why a white horse? There would be more contrast against a dark background, yes?

Shows how we can make automatic assumptions based on our race. Who says she was white?

Dr GO

@Kehaulani said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

@Dr-GO said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

Why a white horse? There would be more contrast against a dark background, yes?

Shows how we can make automatic assumptions based on our race. Who says she was white?

Not race based issue at all, more historically based. I assumed you were referring to the standard from your friend's quote.

In context; I believe this is the standard to which your friend referred:

Dr GO

I believe she made chocolates too:

ROWUK

I think that you guys are getting off track - like on so many threads here. I prefer hammering the shit out of people (thank you Dr. Mark!)

@Kehaulani said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

Shows how we can make automatic assumptions based on our race.

The first law of Network theory; Birds of a feather, flock together.

@ROWUK said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

I prefer hammering the shit out of people

I know you well enough to say you pull out the hammer only when its called for but when you do, you swing a good hammer. Back on track;
It would be so neat to see someone under a machine like Sarah Willis was put under (in this discussion) keeping their tongue flat on the floor of the mouth and changing registers. Sound-Advice says he can go into the extreme registers without the use of his tongue. Okay, Now, show me.