1970 Bach 43 elusive high G#

[Vulgano Brother]

@JWM Rather than the "D"-shaped tuning crook, the rounded is shaped more like a semi-circle.

[Trumpetb]

Im going to add something.

No mention has been made of the mouthpiece.

Thats a bit like saying I cant perform well in a race in my car and then everyone mentions the improving the engine and the transmission but nobody mentions the steering and the suspension.

The contribution Bugatti made to racing and the reason his cars won almost everything even though they were underpowered was because he treated a car as a wholistic system and addressed all elements of suspension steering brakes and power. He got the balance of everything right and his products kicked A$$

My belief is the embouchure, the mouthpiece and the instrument all form a system that delivers results when all are working correctly together.

I find that many issues are created for the player simply by choosing the wrong mouthpiece and many issues evaporate with nothing more than a simple mouthpiece change.

I am not saying this is where the issue lies but it sure is an area I would look at as well as the instrument and the embouchure.

When I have a problem the first thing I do is make sure the instrument is clean and operating correctly, if that doesnt fix it I look to myself and make sure the basics are right and I am performing well, if that doesnt work I look to the mouthpiece and see if a minor change there helps and it usually does, and can make a profound difference.

Only then do I look to blaming the instrument.

In ending I will say that I have issues everywhere but I can tell you now I have solved many issues by matching the mouthpiece and the instrument and the embouchure better.

Bach it is said encouraged his customers to drill the throats of his mouthpieces and even shipped a reamer with each mouthpiece to do this. His expectation was that his instruments would not perform optimally without tuning the mouthpiece to the player and the instrument. If this is true he understood the importance of getting the mouthpiece right.

In short these are the areas that cause problems and the order they strike.

1 Dirt and gunge in a clogged instrument
2 Poor playing
3 poor embouchure
4 poor technique
5 damaged mouthpiece
6 poor mouthpiece choice
7 damaged instrument
8 poor instrument design

As you can see the player is right at the top and the instrument is right at the bottom.

I wouldnt monkey around with the instrument at this stage. Give it a really good clean check it is operating correctly, or better still have that checked for you.

Then look to yourself

Then look to the mouthpiece

Finally look to the instrument.

[ROWUK]

@Trumpetb I will heartily disagree with the mouthpiece having anything to do with a G#. In fact, with good habits, our range does not change much with mouthpiece rather our sound and expression. My range does not change with a 7C, my Monette 1-1 or my 10 1/2E for the picc. The picc sounds AWFUL with the 1-1!
Changing mouthpieces in my world is NEVER part of "basic habits" for reliable playing! The fewer changes from day to day, the greater consistency. Once we have an "abundance" of consistency, we can venture into more palettes of color.

[Trumpetb]

I respect you ROWUK however my experience tells me something different.

There are many very similar mouthpieces that look to be exactly the same and have the same numbering in the numbering convention.

The difference often comes down to one mouthpiece allowing easier access to notes in the range and another supposedly exactly the same size makes it hard work to achieve good tone. And the harder we have to work the more prone we are experiencing difficulties.

I have played several 7c mouthpieces and each one had a different effect on my playing.

The main difference between them being the backbore the bowl shape and the throat size.

Are you honestly suggesting that a 7c with a shallower cup and a small throat plays identically to a 7c with a deeper cup and larger throat,

I am saying that different mouthpieces have a different effect on the player and the players ability to play well throughout his or her range.

And changing a mouthpiece from a c cup to a vee cup can change the response of the instrument.

If the player is having difficulty reaching a note in the range changing to a mouthpiece that suits them better can alleviate some of their problems.

Are you suggesting that Jens Lindemann doesnt know what he is talking about when he says that players often are using the wrong mouthpiece.

If players can play on the wrong mouthpiece then that means they can play on the right mouthpiece.

I personally agree with Jens and I believe that a mouthpiece makes a huge difference to playing and if a player is having problems then they should pay at least some attention to the mouthpiece they play on.

If the mouthpiece doesnt matter then lets all play on a 1c. If the mouthpiece does matter lets find out which suits us best.

When you say "our range does not change much with mouthpiece" doesnt that mean our range does change with mouthpiece.

And if the mouthpiece you play on doesnt matter why do you play on a monette.

And it appears monette agrees with me when they say "By using Monette mouthpieces with a more open, aligned, and neutral physical approach, your instrument can be played more consistently on its 'sweet spot,' resulting in a more resonant sound and improved response, range, and endurance".

So according to monette the monette mouthpiece gives a player more consistency more resonant sound and improved response improved range and improved endurance.

Or does Dave Monette not know what he is talking about.

We cannot have it all ways up either the mouthpiece is important or it is not, and both Jens Lindemann and Dave Monette say the mouthpiece is important for good playing. So I say look at the mouthpiece and address any issues there.

[Dr GO]

@ROWUK said in 1970 Bach 43 elusive high G#:

@Trumpetb I will heartily disagree with the mouthpiece having anything to do with a G#.

Do not loose the focus with this response. There is just something about the G# that just bedazzles the note itself from my experience. Doesn't matter which horn I am playing, which mouthpiece I use with any horn, you have to think (and hear) that G# to slot squarely on it.

[Dale Proctor]

@Dr-GO said in 1970 Bach 43 elusive high G#:

@ROWUK said in 1970 Bach 43 elusive high G#:

@Trumpetb I will heartily disagree with the mouthpiece having anything to do with a G#.

Do not loose the focus with this response. There is just something about the G# that just bedazzles the note itself from my experience. Doesn't matter which horn I am playing, which mouthpiece I use with any horn, you have to think (and hear) that G# to slot squarely on it.

You just have to think “Ab” instead of G#, and you’ll hit it dead-on…lol

[Dr GO]

@Dale-Proctor said in 1970 Bach 43 elusive high G#:

@Dr-GO said in 1970 Bach 43 elusive high G#:

@ROWUK said in 1970 Bach 43 elusive high G#:

@Trumpetb I will heartily disagree with the mouthpiece having anything to do with a G#.

Do not loose the focus with this response. There is just something about the G# that just bedazzles the note itself from my experience. Doesn't matter which horn I am playing, which mouthpiece I use with any horn, you have to think (and hear) that G# to slot squarely on it.

You just have to think “Ab” instead of G#, and you’ll hit it dead-on…lol

Don't know why, but I think of it as 2,3. I plead neutrality.

[Trumpetb]

Playing the trumpet is an art not a science.

Like Vincent Van Gogh or Monet or Michaelangelo or Turner, we have to find a way of doing what we want to do, we have to find a way of creating the thing we want to create.

It is like a painter using his brushes canvas and paint in whatever way allows the artist to create what they want to represent.

Our Tools are trumpet and mouthpiece, and that thing that lies behind our eyes and between our ears.

We have to be creative and find a way of achieving what we want to and need to achieve.

All we have is our sound and whatever we can do to create that sound.

Bix Beiderbecke worked out his own way of playing what he wanted to play using alternate fingerings and alternate ways of playing.

It does not matter what we do to achieve what we create, all that matters is what we have created in the doing of it.

Why should it be valves 1 and 2, why can it not be valve 3 alone.

why is it considered G sharp and not A flat

Our task is to find a way to achieve our goal.

This is the key to advanced playing, to abandon the conventions that are so often imposed upon students.

Students need these conventions of course but Students can be strangled by rigid methods and this can lead to preventing progress.

Embrace the freedom to explore and find a better way to achieve our goals.

A problem is both something to overcome but it is also an opportunity to do something new.

And in the finding of and doing of that new thing to solve a problem we have, now lies the opportunity to open a new chapter in our playing.

All that matters is our sound.

Find a way.

[ROWUK]

@Trumpetb We can learn from those before us or attempt reinvent the wheel. I am very much for leveraging what those far smarter than me have already figured out! It saves time and lets us get to the music much, much faster.

[Trumpetb]

@ROWUK I totally agree.

However when something hits us in the face and opposes the usual and published knowledge we are forced to question its validity.

Let me give an example pertinent to our discussion.

I have several instruments and around 24 mouthpieces consequently I have not tried every mouthpiece in every instrument.

One particular day I was using an Olds trumpet, and I swapped my usual mouthpiece for one I had not tried on this instrument before. A yamaha.

Prior to the swap the instruments articulation was precise and predictable. I found it easy to centre each note and therefore playing was a pleasure.

After the change to the yamaha mouthpiece the instrument was immediately very slippery in articulation, notes were not centering and it drove me mad.

I blamed myself. With a lot of effort I was able to control the instrument but it was still an effort to centre the notes.

I then considered the issue. The only change had been the mouthpiece.

So I changed it back. Immediately all problems went away notes centred easily playing was a joy.

I swapped the yamaha mouthpiece back in. Instant disaster slippery articulation and notes not centering.

I put the yamaha mouthpiece away and never had the problem again.

Convention says a mouthpiece change does not affect articulation much at all and certainly not to that degree. A mouthpiece change typically does not make an instrument a nightmare to play.

Experience shows that simply to be untrue. IN SOME VERY RARE CASES.

I have used that same yamaha mouthpiece on several instruments without any difficulties at all.

Simply put that mouthpiece on that instrument just does not follow convention.

Slippery articulation can be very desirable of course, but it can cause issues.

I have used that instrument with many other mouthpieces without any difficulties at all.

But

Put those two together and you get nightmare articulation.

This is a very unusual circumstance that I have only seen this once and I repeat my earlier statement that a mouthpiece change can affect articulation.

I do agree with you that we stand on the knowledge of far smarter people than we are who have worked out what happens.

But my position is that while this common wisdom applies to 99.9999999% of cases. It does not apply to 100% of cases.

If it did apply to 100% of cases I would not have experienced catastrophic issues when I changed that mouthpiece.

Some equipment simply and inexplicably behaves contrary to common wisdom.

We as professionals must accept this. We cannot say everything will always work in exactly the same way.

Some things just dont work and unpopular as that appears to be it is a truth we must accept.

The fact is some instruments do not follow convention and some instrument/mouthpiece combinations simply do not work well together.

And if you are unlucky enough to have a combination that does not work well together then you should find that out instead of blaming yourself and going on a crusade to play better that might last 10 years and be ultimately pointless because the equipment carries a major issue.

If you have to fight your equipment maybe just maybe the equipment is at fault.

And what does it cost to change a mouthpiece 15 seconds of effort.

Or borrow one.

It takes no effort to change a mouthpiece.

Find out if the mouthpiece is contributing to the issue, so change it.

I want to add something ROWUK our discussion in no way alters my respect for you as a teacher and authority on everything trumpet.

No man or woman can know everything. If you havent seen the devastating affect a bad mouthpiece/trumpet combination can have you would not know such a problem can exist.

And perhaps a poor mouthpiece/trumpet combination can affect the articulation subtly and badly and maybe this issue is more widespread than it appears to be and maybe it has gone unnoticed for a very long time.

[ROWUK]

@Trumpetb You argue about a large quantity of mouthpieces? Knowing that the human state is creature of habit, I would argue that you will NEVER get good enough to really tell the differences if you are constantly switching. I need 6 months with a mouthpiece to get really acclimated and have an opinion. That means 24 mouthpieces for me is 12 years. Considering that our bodies change about every 7 years, only a small portion of what we think that we have learned will stick and the great players are great because they leverage the habit. Random mixing, just mixes the face up and that produces random results.

In my 58 years of play I went from a Bach 1 1/2C (4 years) to a 1C (2 years), to a Schilke 18 (22 years), to a Monette B/C2 (30 years). I always had a "real" reason to change. The 1C was because I started playing in symphonies, the Schilke to improve intonation of my Bach CL 229H and the Monette because I switched to an Ajna2 (heavy Monette) trumpet with a large shank.

[Trumpetb]

@ROWUK I feel you misunderstand me.

I have 24 mouthpieces, that is correct, but I dont recall suggesting that constantly switching is a good habit.

My approach to playing is to understand how mouthpieces affect instruments, then zero in on the best mouthpiece fit for the instrument and the embouchure and then stick with it.

If something goes wrong when you change your instrument, then dont stay with the mouthpiece that used to work on that other instrument. That was a different instrument. Begin with that mouthpiece by all means, but be open to trying others.

If you change your style of play for example, then a mouthpiece change might assist with playing that new style.

You said yourself that you have changed mouthpiece several times.

I dont see how a player can use just one mouthpiece for 30 years unless they were playing the same style of music that requires one set of timbres.

A large bowl delivers dark and rich tones
A small shallow bowl delivers bright tones.

That is physics you cant fight physics.

If you want to play brightly then you are fighting the setup if you use a huge mouthpiece.

If you want to play richly and darkly then you are fighting the setup if you use a tiny mouthpiece.

If you are fighting your instrument constantly then you wont get the best from it or yourself.

Of course the very best players in the world like Arturo Sandoval can play anything on anything, but I am not Arturo.

We are trying to help players like ourselves play as well as they can and hopefully we can offer real world solutions to real world problems.

My advice is this.

If you experience a problem you cannot fix, then be willing to try a different mouthpiece.

[ROWUK]

@Trumpetb I understand you actually quite well. I also disagree with a lot that you post - because it all seems so random and not based on real experience. It is also very confusing considering that we have readers that can not tell the difference.
I disagree with "zeroing in" between mouthpiece and each horn - unless the mouthpiece has the same rim and cup and only minor shank work is necessary. Before my Monette period, I used the same mouthpiece on all my trumpets except for when I played lead. Monette builds Bb, C and Eb mouthpieces so I use the same size, cup and throat for all of those horns. Even the flugel and cornet mouthpiece have the same rim.
I would also disagree that mouthpieces GENERALLY change with style unless we are comparing lead to everything else.
We are creatures of habit and to get a stable base, we need to reduce our choices to optimize with the limited time that those of us posting here have.
If accuracy is a non issue for your playing, then the free for all is fine.
I do not need multiple mouthpieces for symphonic, chamber, commercial or big band (except lead). My chosen mouthpiece is dynamic enough in its behaviour that I do not experience problems that I can't fix just by practicing more.
Now, the bogus use of the word physics in this context is worth clarifying. IF high quality playing is critical, we actually have very few choices. We need very clear articulation, clear tone from low to high. We need a tone compatible with the section that we play in as well as great flexibility, security and good intonation. Please do not compare Till Brönner to Maynard Ferguson or Jean Francois Madeuf to Maurice Andre. They also have/had narrow choices that cover(ed) their specialized playing.
So, a lot of words around a very simple concept: jack of no trade and master of none. Creatures of habit need repetitions to develop a flexible tone covering many use cases. Creatures of habit need repetitions to build security and style. For players without a very strong foundation, changes are the primary cause of unreliability. Find the mouthpiece and practice routine that is the best compromise and stick with it.
Remember! this thread is about a player with an elusive high G# - so no lead, solo career, no historical performance practice or anything else with "special" hardware or non compatible tone. No hardware will solve this. It is mind over matter and perhaps Clarke is the answer, or maybe Schlossberg, for others it could just be getting too damn much pressure reduced a little bit.

[ROWUK]

One more snippet out of my lifes path:
The greatest liability to a rehearsal or performance, is the low to medium chops players showing up to a rehearsal with 4 or 5 trumpets and bragging about why each piece needs a different instrument or mouthpiece. This person has lost all connection to reality unless it is an ensemble specialized in period playing with the unlikely bad programming that needs so many instruments.
Now, granted, I have given recitals with the theme "history of the trumpet". In this case, I did have different mouthpieces for my rennaissance natural trumpet, early baroque natural trumpet, late baroque natural trumpet, early classical natural trumpet, classical keyed trumpet, classical valved trumpet, romantic era valved trumpet and then the historical instruments from the 20th century (1911 Holton Clarke model long cornet, 1936 Heckel rotary Bb trumpet). These instruments were played in a solo context to show what was common at the time of manufacture - not forced on an ensemble not capable of embracing and showcasing the specialties.
So, I have a lot of mouthpieces, but never talk about them as my use case is historical performing practice, not everyday community band stuff. For someone with difficulty with G#, a mouthpiece change is the worst advice that I could give

[Trumpetb]

@ROWUK

I do have a large amount of experience and I have seen the profound difference that changing a mouthpiece can have.

I do not dispute at all that a player with monster chops can play anything from low register to the highest register with ease.

Unfortunately I am not one of these players. I therefore rely upon the mouthpiece to assist me in playing the notes I can reach in my range.

I fully accept the criticism that my chops are of low to medium strength.

On the other hand the meaning I seem to be gathering from your posts is that everyone has monster chops and mouthpiece changes wont help them at all. I would disagree with that if that is what you are saying.

You say that many in here could be hurt by my encouraging them to check out their mouthpiece choice.

It seems to me that they would be hurt more by forcing them to persevere with a bad mouthpiece and waste many years of their lives coping with bad equipment.

Do you know what trumpet the OP was playing on, do you know what mouthpiece the OP was using. Isnt it important to know that their equipment is good and functioning correctly before blaming the player.

Lets talk turkey. I have seen players using equipment so damaged that it was very difficult for them to play well.

It might take 20 years hard work to overcome equipment faults that are very severe. Or it might take just 2 minutes if they just swap the equipment for good equipment that works correctly.

I also seem to be seeing in your posts an assertion that all mouthpieces are fabulous, and no mouthpiece can affect a player badly.

If this is the case why do you not play on a cheap 3 dollar mouthpiece from India or from China.

Could it be that your monette mouthpiece plays more evenly through the ranges than the 3 dollar trashy item from AliExpress.

And if the monette plays more evenly through the ranges that must mean that other mouthpieces do not play evenly through the ranges.

And one last thing. Why are you so opposed to a player simply trying a different mouthpiece.

It costs nothing will give an instant answer. Then you know.

Or let us argue for weeks on whether or not we should pop a different mouthpiece in, and all we would lose is 15 seconds doing that.

You can lose weeks or months arguing about whether to try it, or you can lose 15 seconds trying it out.

If a player says a different mouthpiece cannot possibly improve their playing, my reaction is have you tried it or are you just talking.

And if they say oh no I would never under any circumstances try a different mouthpiece I would say ok no problem you do you.

Is it really blasphemy to say your mouthpiece might be holding you back.

I am willing to say that, and be condemned as an evil man for suggesting that some mouthpieces might be better than others.

When I recently passed an Olds Special to a friend who played on a 7c, I offered two 7c mouthpieces with it. An Olds 7c and a 7c by another manufacturer.

He tried both and found the Olds 7c played better. Are you saying it could not possibly have played better.

He was not a fabulous player with cast iron chops, and he found one of the mouthpieces to perform better than the other. Both were 7c and one suited him and his instrument better.

Is there something wrong with this.

I believe it is folly to claim that a mouthpiece change cannot affect playing. The entire mouthpiece industry is based upon the fact that a mouthpiece change can affect playing.

So what are we arguing about.

I say, find the best mouthpiece for your instrument, and your reaction is to say NO!

Can you make this make sense. I am all ears.

If it were me I would spend 15 seconds slamming a different mouthpiece in that I thought might improve things, and find out the truth there and then, and then move on. Job done.

But then I am a pragmatic guy and I just do stuff.

There is an approach to not getting things done called Paralysis through analysis.

Too many people spend months or years analysing things by research and it wastes their time.

They might spend months analysing everything to decide if they should try a different mouthpiece when all it takes is 15 seconds to try it.

No discussions or research or reports or investigation or polling the opinions of specialists or experts are needed. Just try it.

This is the core of the issue.

If a student cannot play as well as they would like, and the problem is the mouthpiece is wrong or bad. One approach would be to spend a couple of years on lessons in the belief that the equipment must be fine.

At the end of that couple of years they might play better or they might not.

Or

They change the equipment and if the equipment now functions better they have saved themselves 2 years.

That is 2 years they can now spend on improvement and not on coping with bad equipment.

Do we want to waste students time or solve their problems.

Over to you

[ROWUK]

@Trumpetb This is my last comment to you:
The subject in this thread is very specific. Your (too) many words seem more like damage control than a better analysis.
I have said everything applicable and will not engage with you in completely unrelated issues.
You can try to bend my words, my meaning whatever, this is not my problem. It is obvious that you know better. What motivation you have to continue is of no interest to me. In my world, people that choose to ignore are "ignorant", meaning conciously choosing to ignore supporting facts. In earlier years, I in fact had a crusade against mouthpiece safaris that have ruined more players than ever helped. Just observing the used mouthpiece market it becomes apparent where the empty promises of range, endurance and sound are. I "saved" several students from this obsession.

It is VERY EASY to tell if an issue is the player or the equipment. The OPs description is perfectly adequate for my analysis and qualified suggestion. There are telltale signs indicating if there is something about a mouthpiece that is not optimal. None in this thread for the OP and none for you based on what you report about your own playing.

The most damaging advice for the question presented in this thread in my opinion is, "just try it". We have an acclimation period and as I said, that can be months. When playing around with our habits, certain controls MUST be met to have a qualified result.

Do not expect any further comments to your posting. It already has gone far beyond anything that I would normally even bother with.

[Trumpetb]

@ROWUK

I am surprised at what has transpired here.

It makes good sense to change the mouthpiece when you hit a difficulty, just to see if that change helps to reduce the issue.

If it does not help, then where is the harm. A few seconds lost is all.

A mouthpiece can undoubtedly affect articulation and tone across the registers.

Trying a different mouthpiece is a healthy exploration for any player who experiences difficulties in their playing and it should not be denied them.

The high G# is known to be elusive. That is partly due to the design of the trumpet and the principles of acoustics.

Some mouthpieces may make that pitch more elusive to hit. Other mouthpieces might make it easier to hit that pitch.

I will for once state my position technically.

We must play each pitch correctly, and hit every pitch correctly centred, or we might miss the pitch on elusive notes. Not centering each and every pitch correctly leads to reliance upon the instrument to centre the pitch for you.

And that reliance leads to the exact problem the OP is experiencing.

This is in my opinion why so many players find the committee difficult to play. They do not centre their pitches correctly and robustly and they find the instrument to be slippery and difficult to control. This also leads to missing the high G#.

You have to play each pitch correctly and nail each pitch absolutely centred.

A mouthpiece change might assist in nailing the pitches by helping you pull them all to centre.

But the right way to play is to nail all your pitches strongly centred.

I call that Making the note. Make each note centred.

That is not the same as sliding into pitches in a jazzy manner.

I have experienced mouthpieces that assist in strongly centering pitches and I have experienced mouthpieces that do not assist in strongly centering pitches.

If your instrument centres strongly you can easily fall into the habit of letting it do the centering for you, and the high G# then becomes elusive because you are not playing the note centred.

The instrument is then playing you not the other way round. You should be playing the instrument not the other way round.

In my view this is critically important.

And why would a mouthpiece that works against the player centering notes, not make the high G# even more difficult to nail than it should.

Do not tell me that the experiences I have had and the successes I have had, are worthless.

I expect now to be nailed to the wall for telling people how to play the instrument even though I do already know how to play it and I know how to play the high G# without any issues.

I have said this many times over the last 15 years. Either you are in control of your instrument or your instrument is in control of you.

That is the top and bottom of the problem, and the core of the issue here.

The mouthpiece is important, the instrument is important, the chops are important, the mind of the player is important.

They are ALL important.

[J. Jericho]

Please allow me to suggest that this thread may have passed its expiration date, figuratively speaking. The discussion has narrowed to a repeated difference of opinion expressed by two members, both sides of which have been thoroughly enunciated. When one party goes out of his way to concisely define his opinion and the other party continues to restate his, even after the conversation has reached its end, then we have a problem. If no new information is offered by other members, the reasonable option will be to close this thread.

[administrator]

Not sure what's going on here, I haven't been following the thread, but maybe we should turn the temps down a couple of notches.

[Trumpetb]

No high temps here

This was a difference of opinion between two members who respect each other, and both stand by their opinions