Weirdest thing happened

[BigDub]

Notice, this is not in “a little humor”.

A little background first.
When I play my horn(s) at home I use Yamaha Silent Brass° and also add accompanying music from Apple Music on my MacBook Pro. I have been doing this for as long as I have had the system…..maybe close to 20 yrs?
Anyway, today I did the same thing. Began to play one of my many tunes from my extensive playlist. I was using the new C trumpet, and I couldn’t match the pitch. I thought maybe I was playing from a part written for Bb ( not that I can’t transpose either way ). But, no, it was correct. I tried another song. Same problem. Another, and then went to the Bb. Still no good. I even checked with a tuner. Right on the money!
When I say I couldn’t match the pitch, I mean when I played what was written. I can match about any pitch, but this was almost a complete step flat!
Ok, I never had any type of experience like this. I thought maybe I had lost my mind, instantly like. I tried a YouTube song I have also on a playlist and this was fine. Tried a song from GarageBand, it was fine, too. I decided to quit Apple Music and open it again. Fixed it right away, but not after near panic that something was seriously wrong with my laptop.

Anybody else ever had this exact problem? WOW, that was something.

It’s fixed now. Thanks for not giving me any tips how to fix it. No need to help here. I am ok now. Thanks.

[fels]

@bigdub
Yes I have had similar experience when playing to back tracks from the various Fake Books sources. I have not tried to figure it out,, rather just pull the paper Fake Books out and play those without back tracks.

[Trumpetb]

Pitch is represented by timing, in other words, middle c is 256 hz or 256 cycles per second a above middle c is 440 cycles per second.

If you slow the cycles per second of a note played at a at 440 cycles per second down to 256 cycles per second it will sound exactly like a c.

A correct pitch then produced by a computer is dependent upon the speed that the computer operates at.

If the computer runs slow the pitches will all be flat.

I have done some work many years ago in the area of computer basic operations and the speed of internal clock operations in computers.

What I would say is, the speed of the computer governs the pitches the computer plays in exactly the same way that slowing down a vinyl record lowers the pitch or a train hooter sounding as it moves away lowers the pitch.

Computers are run at whatever speed the system board clock cycle allows them to run at and this may vary and can affect the speeds that software programs run at and the pitches they produce.

Computers cannot be relied upon to govern speeds correctly they run faster or slower depending upon hardware and software resource usage.

The only computer systems that can be relied upon for correct and consistent speed of operation are real time systems that control traffic lights aerospace and flight systems. We dont have access to those real time systems they are very expensive.

The only caveat to this is if the computer is configured with a separate clock system external to the system board such as a timing chip on a separate device, or an external clock maintained and accessible over an external interface such as an internet timer clock.

Even if there is a clock governing the absolute time for pitches, if the computer suffers timing issues the pitches the computer generates must suffer.

One such internet timer clock is the world clock but that is not generally useful for timing a computer internally down to microseconds, and it is not useful to try to do this.

I am not at all surprised that inconsistent pitches in music played by computer systems has been seen, what I am surprised at is that these effects are noticed so little,

For example a music score played over an internet connection depends upon the packets delivered over an internet contended link. If the packets are delivered too slow the pitches may be affected, or pauses appear.

This means musical phrases are sliced up into parts and then reassembled in the computer, and if there is lots of traffic over the internet then slowdowns brownouts and dropouts are inevitable.

A router might receive 350,000 packets per second so pitches at 256 or 440 cycles per second are sliced up into fragments of cycles and each one must be assembled in the correct order or the pitch is corrupted in some way.

We cannot expect music to keep correct time there are too many variables, we cannot expect computers to even play a cd or a dvd or internet music correctly, it is simply not the way computers are designed to operate.

Typically modern computers have enough resources available to not run out while we listen to music so we dont see these effects but there is still a risk of that happening.

I cannot explain the symptoms described there are too many factors at play, it may be due to a temporary loss of of resources preventing correct timing of a short duration that then cleared itself when whatever consumed the resources stopped acting, then the software could operate correctly once more.

It could be that the software running had a corruption and that surfaced as a slowdown.

Resource loss is the usual culprit for slowdown and stagnation it being fairly common for a bad program to consume 100% of the computers resources and nothing is then left for music programs to use.

Expect to see this problem re surface occasionally.

My background credentials are in computer technical support, systems building, and systems troubleshooting on all platforms from intel to motorola to sun unix plus tcpip comms and ethernet.

[BigDub]

@trumpetb
I don’t know.. it only happened on Apple Music. GarageBand had some tunes I made that I could play along with, YouTube was fine, too.
The music did not lose tempo, just pitch ( the meaning of which I am familiar )
It just strangely came back when I restarted the laptop.

[Trumpetb]

That is odd and confusing.

Without any more information I would be just speculating and that wont help anyone.

I hope this doesnt return, but we cant be sure it wont.

If it does return try to take some measurements to see what the pitch and tempo are during the fault condition and if they are consistent and unchanging or instead they change over time, then comparing the results with the correct pitch and tempo might help to point towards the cause.

Additionally noting what software is running at the same time as when the fault occurs, and what you believe might have changed just before or while the fault struck might help diagnose the problem.

Softwares can sometimes conflict in bizarre ways.

Systems can sometimes report their resource usage in a utility and this might be examined while the fault is occurring.

I have also had some success with using ping to a remote system that is pingable.

A ping returns a timing value, so if during the fault the ping return takes a much longer time than it normally does then this can reveal a general slowdown of the system during the fault and it can also yield a percentage slowdown figure as well.

If the ping is slowed during the fault, the cause of slowing the ping down might also be causing the pitch issue.

A specialist may need to be consulted however.

Intermittent problems can be very difficult to analyse and trace.

Other than that good luck with it.

[barliman2001]

@bigdub Apple has a reputation for creating huge file sizes without really much showing for it... it just might be that Garage Band files are smaller and better handled by the computer... and if you are not running an original Apple system, the problem might just be that the conversion of Apple Music into a Windows compatible version has blown up file size so much that all the "rubbish" is clogging up the system to an extent that pitch is already affected, whereas playing time is not yet.

[Trumpetb]

That is a great insight mr barliman2001 thank you for that knowledgeable contribution

[Trumpetb]

I feel I should perhaps add the perception of tempo and of pitch in a piece are in my opinion slightly different.

What I mean by that is a slowing down of overall timing of a device playing a recorded work is more noticeable in pitch than in tempo.

A 1% or 2% slowing of tempo might pass unnoticed and in performances in general a 1% or 2% variation of timing is not excessive.

Pitch however is very noticeable and even a 1% change is often revealed starkly and is easily identified using a modern tuner or simply by observation while playing an instrument at correct pitch at the same time.

It may be the case therefore that a system slowdown sufficient to affect the pitches would be instantly revealed in pitch changes whereas the attendant tempo changes would be much harder to detect and therefore the conclusion might be reached that pitch has changed but the tempo has not.

I am sure I would reach that same conclusion as it would take great effort to measure and to spot very slight tempo changes that are associated with slight pitch changes.

[Dr GO]

Sounds like BigDub needs to pitch a fit with Apple.

[BigDub]

@trumpetb
In my case, what happened was almost a full step down in pitch without any loss of tempo, and only on iMusic, not GarageBand or YouTube.
That was a big part of what made it so strange.

[BigDub]

@barliman2001 said in Weirdest thing happened:

@bigdub Apple has a reputation for creating huge file sizes without really much showing for it... it just might be that Garage Band files are smaller and better handled by the computer... and if you are not running an original Apple system, the problem might just be that the conversion of Apple Music into a Windows compatible version has blown up file size so much that all the "rubbish" is clogging up the system to an extent that pitch is already affected, whereas playing time is not yet.
All sounds very scholarly, Elmar, but not even in the ballpark, I must humbly say in my non scholarly way. It is apple to apple, pardon the word play. And Microsoft is not a part of my life, for the most part.
Also, strangely, this had never happened until the other day when I first posted it. I’ve been using the same format, or system for a very long time but never had this exact thing happen once.

[Trumpetb]

@BigDub

Understood, I guess we will have to put it down to experience.

I have seen some strange and odd behaviour too and just had to give up on trying to understand it, I just had to ignore it and move on and say it is what it is and try to take something positive from it.

Music can be more art than science sometimes and have an unpredictability that intrigues, that is part of its appeal and its beauty.

One day maybe we will understand what happened until then let us just make good music and have a ball doing it.

Good luck to you sir

[SSmith1226]

Wayne,
I had a similar issue last January. I was using my iMac and Zoom Recorder Microphone. I was interacting (playing simultaneously) with other musicians located throughout North America using software to facilitate this called Jamulus. When we were playing together, my playing sounded through the headphones one half to one step higher to the rest of the online ensemble. Without the headphones, I was playing in tune. After I reinstalled the microphone and adjusted the parameters of Jamulous, the problem corrected. This problem also manifested itself intermittently on GarageBand as well, where the pitch recorded on GarageBand was 1 - 2 halfsteps sharp compared to what came out of the horn. The only way I found to solve this intermittent problem was to remove Jamulous from my computer.
In your case, you were monitoring your Yamaha Silent Mute System through your headphones on your Mac. You assumed that the background tracks were modified in pitch. Is it possible that your recorded pitch from the Yamaha Silent Mute was modified and the background tracks were the correct pitch?
Had you installed any new software on your Mac that might have created a sample rate issue and modified the pitch? If the sample rate of Your Microphone was, for example 48kHZ and your computer got reset to 44KHz, your recorded and monitored pitch would be relatively sharp compared to your background recordings. BTW, when I discussed the problem with Apple and Jamulous Tech Support, no one could explain the problem, correct the problem, and each pointed their fingers at each other.

[BigDub]

@ssmith1226 said in Weirdest thing happened:

Wayne,
I had a similar issue last January. I was using my iMac and Zoom Recorder Microphone. I was interacting (playing simultaneously) with other musicians located throughout North America using software to facilitate this called Jamulus. When we were playing together, my playing sounded through the headphones one half to one step higher to the rest of the online ensemble. Without the headphones, I was playing in tune. After I reinstalled the microphone and adjusted the parameters of Jamulous, the problem corrected. This problem also manifested itself intermittently on GarageBand as well, where the pitch recorded on GarageBand was 1 - 2 halfsteps sharp compared to what came out of the horn. The only way I found to solve this intermittent problem was to remove Jamulous from my computer.
In your case, you were monitoring your Yamaha Silent Mute System through your headphones on your Mac. You assumed that the background tracks were modified in pitch. Is it possible that your recorded pitch from the Yamaha Silent Mute was modified and the background tracks were the correct pitch?
Had you installed any new software on your Mac that might have created a sample rate issue and modified the pitch? If the sample rate of Your Microphone was, for example 48kHZ and your computer got reset to 44KHz, your recorded and monitored pitch would be relatively sharp compared to your background recordings. BTW, when I discussed the problem with Apple and Jamulous Tech Support, no one could explain the problem, correct the problem, and each pointed their fingers at each other.

I sometimes notice that Apple does not always play well with others.
The new thing was some AirPods which are wireless headphones, but they are Apple. Still wouldn’t rule that out. I do notice that my MacBook seems to eventually “learn” better habits in time.

[SSmith1226]

I sometimes notice that Apple does not always play well with others.
The new thing was some AirPods which are wireless headphones, but they are Apple. Still wouldn’t rule that out. I do notice that my MacBook seems to eventually “learn” better habits in time.

Wayne,
If I am not mistaken, Apple AirPods also have a microphone. If this is correct, perhaps installing it changed the sampling rate of your Yamaha Silent Mute temporarily. I certainly am not a computer, or audio expert, but I am sure of what Jamulous did to the audio input of my Zoom H4n Pro microphone.

[tjcombo]

HNY Wayne, wonder if this is an electronic or ear issue? Thought I’d share my “one weird trick” story in case it helps.
A few years back, I acquired my first C trumpet and couldn’t believe how bad its intonation. Swapped back and forth between C and regular Bb horn in practice and the new horn didn’t seem to improve.
I can’t remember why, but I played few tunes on the Bb, reading from a Bb Real Book, then played the same tunes on the C horn, reading from the C Real Book and for some strange reason the intonation issues stopped. It was like something in my tiny mind switched - either that or some musical elves tweaked the C trumpet.

Cheers
tj

[BigDub]

@tjcombo said in Weirdest thing happened:

HNY Wayne, wonder if this is an electronic or ear issue? Thought I’d share my “one weird trick” story in case it helps.
A few years back, I acquired my first C trumpet and couldn’t believe how bad its intonation. Swapped back and forth between C and regular Bb horn in practice and the new horn didn’t seem to improve.
I can’t remember why, but I played few tunes on the Bb, reading from a Bb Real Book, then played the same tunes on the C horn, reading from the C Real Book and for some strange reason the intonation issues stopped. It was like something in my tiny mind switched - either that or some musical elves tweaked the C trumpet.

Cheers
tj

Interesting, but definitely not what happened to me. As soon as I switched to a YouTube recording it was spot on.
Also, in answer to Steve, I haven’t been using the AirPods when using the silent brass device.
It was so strange because I have been playing with this setup for close to 20 years and nothing with the pitch changing has ever happened.
Once I quit Apple Music and restarted the computer it corrected itself.

[Trumpetb]

May I speculate

The apple store has an app that allows the listener to freely change the pitch and the tempo of a tune in the media library separately.

In other words you can take a tune in the library and alter a tempo slider that alters the tempo but keeps the pitch the same.

Or

You can shift a pitch slider and the tempo stays the same but the pitch changes.

In the real world with real instruments and real recordings this is not possible, shift a recordings tempo and the pitch changes. The pitch and the tempo are locked together.

Not so in the computer world.

Pitch and tempo are simply elements of the digital audio world. This is the reason that autotuners can function and alter the pitch of an out of tune singer while keeping the tempo fixed, or alter the pitch of an out of tune instrument and keep the tempo fixed.

Obviously you were not purposefully adjusting the pitch or the tempo but that doesnt mean that changes that affect the pitch were not able to happen.

Computer software is clearly in complete control of pitch and tempo and the two can act independently.

If a computer program malfunctions then everything it has control over can go out of synch and I suspect this might be what happened.

A restart fixed the issue, and that is typical of a computer glitch when things go out of synch, a restart refreshes everything and brings everything back into synchronisation.

Could this be at the root of this strange behaviour.

[BigDub]

@trumpetb
Sounds logical. But I am sure I didn’t initiate any of those changes to Apple Music when it occurred. I was using new apple Air Pods for the first time. Don’t know if I mentioned that. Strange that it didn’t happen on YouTube music or GarageBand music at that same session before restarting. No?

[Trumpetb]

I didnt mean to suggest that you might have made any changes yourself that caused these problems. My contention is that if a software malfunctions it affects whatever the software has control over. Nobody intentionally runs a software bug they just occur and the operator suffers the effects.

This could be caused by a software bug.

That also means that if apple music were affected, then garageband would not be affected.

The way software works is when you use a software application, Word for example or Photoshop, you use a copy of the software that is loaded into memory from the software that has been installed.

You then run the copy that resides in memory. If the copy is a good one the software behaves as expected, if however there is a corruption when loading the copy into memory the software misbehaves and that is a bug or one type of bug.

This is why apple music might work fine for most of the time but on one occasion it might misbehave, it is the faulty copy that was loaded into memory that misbehaved and not the installed software. Other software like garageband is unaffected.

if you restart and run apple music again you get a new copy of apple music so it then works fine, no bug.

You might think you are always running the software you installed but you never do, software can only run from a copy of that software that sits in memory.