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    Opinions on Valve Oils?

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    • Newell Post
      Newell Post last edited by

      So, here's a recent valve oil story. And the answer is........ Monster Oil "Smoother (Our Thickest)."

      A while ago I bought a Bach Mercedes from a guy, just for a backup horn and because it was cheap. The serial number dates it to about 1980. It has a few dings, but no major dents. The silver plate is 99% and the valves have excellent compression.

      The first thing I did when I got it was (of course) a thorough cleaning. After that cleaning, it had two small problems: the first and third slides were very sticky and the first and second valves would hang up slightly on the upstroke. I polished the slides with Flitz and I also polished the pistons and casings VERY slightly first with Flitz and then with toothpaste.

      After a second VERY thorough cleaning, the slides were perfect, but the valves still balked once in the while. (They felt perfect when first picking up the horn. But after playing for a while, as the horn warmed up, the valves would still balk on the upstroke once in a while.) Hetman #1 and #2 didn't seem to make any difference.

      Next, I replaced the valve guides, valve springs, felts, and even the valve stems with new Bach OEM parts and did a third very thorough cleaning. This time I tried all 3 Hetman oils and still had occasional valve upstroke problems. At this point, I thought: "OK. That exhausts my bag of tricks. It has to go to the tech. But, oh wait. The shop is closed due to COVID-19. It will need to wait for a while. No problem. I have other horns."

      But, since I'm mostly stuck at home, I thought I would try some of the Monster Oil "Smoother" I have sitting around for vintage horns, just as an experiment. I wiped everything off and applied the oil. When inserting the pistons in the casings, I made sure to rotate the pistons in the casings 3 or 4 turns before locking them in, just to make sure the oil coated all 360 degrees. And what do you know? It worked. At least so far, after about a week of playing: no valve hang ups.

      I don't really have a good explanation for this. If the valves were too tight, you would expect the thinner/light oils to work better. But the heavier Monster Oil seems to be the answer for this horn, for whatever reason.

      Bb: Bach 180S37G (05), Mercedes (80)
      Vintage: Committee (54), Recording (59), Super (49), Getzen Severinsen (66)
      C: Kanstul 1510, Constellation
      D/Eb: Getzen Eterna
      Cornet: Schilke XA1, Yamaha Neo Eb
      Flugel: Kanstul 1525, Yamaha 625
      Conch shell in F

      grune 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • grune
        grune @Newell Post last edited by grune

        @Newell-Post

        You have experienced the effect of increased viscosity. Viscosity is the ratio of the tangential strain to the deformation strain of the liquid at a given temperature. The tangential is caused by the piston travel. The deformation is inherent to the chemistry of the liquid: thus lower means greater viscosity. The dimension is [force x time]/area. The unit is newton-second per square meter.

        Effectively, it means your piston is contacting the casing to the point where the friction overcomes the viscosity of the oil. In your case, the heavy oil has sufficient viscosity to overcome the contact friction. Your valves will not gain speed until you lessen the contact.

        The problem is solved by process of elimination. 1/ Start with a bore plug of the exact size needed: not a micron more or less. If the plug cannot travel freely in the casing, the casing is bent. 2/ The piston must be perfectly straight: which requires tools and skill to assess. 3/ The valve stem must be lapped/honed properly within the casing, to the point where you are satisfied with piston speed and smoothness for the oil you choose.

        If 1 and 2 are perfect, and your valves are monel coated, you are in luck: the pistons can be lapped/honed. Contrary to belief, monel is soft, which enables lapping within the casing. If your pistons are stainless steel, they cannot be lapped within the casing: hard steel will destroy the softer brass or nickel casing.

        Bach Stradivarius Model 37 in silver [180S37], ca 1972.

        Newell Post 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • Newell Post
          Newell Post @grune last edited by Newell Post

          @grune Thanks, grune. It's a Bach Mercedes, which uses the Strad valve block, so the pistons are monel. If the oil doesn't continue to address the problem, I'll take it to the tech to check the tolerances, assuming the shop ever re-opens.

          Bb: Bach 180S37G (05), Mercedes (80)
          Vintage: Committee (54), Recording (59), Super (49), Getzen Severinsen (66)
          C: Kanstul 1510, Constellation
          D/Eb: Getzen Eterna
          Cornet: Schilke XA1, Yamaha Neo Eb
          Flugel: Kanstul 1525, Yamaha 625
          Conch shell in F

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • I
            IrishTrumpeter @Dr GO last edited by

            @Dr-GO said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

            @djeffers78 said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

            Preferably Hetmans 2
            But anything works fine as long as it’s not Blue Juice
            If Holton oil was still a thing I’d still use it. I’ve heard Linzoil is the same but haven’t tried it

            I used both Holton (my initial favorite) and Blue Juice. I also was tempted by Monster Oil. Of these Monster Oil really slowed down my valve action, Blue Juice was just OK, and Holton did fine. However Ultra Pure gives me the fastest action, lasts the longest and leaves less residue in between oiling as I noted from wiping down the valves prior to re applying oil. Learned the valve wipe down technique from Rowuk.

            Hey Dr Go - would you have a link/description of the Valve wipedown technique?

            Thomann TR 800 L MKII Bb-Trumpet
            Startone PTR-20 Bb- Trumpet Blue
            pCompact pCompact Bb- trumpet red

            Kehaulani Dr GO 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • grune
              grune last edited by

              CAUTION
              update on Tromba T3 oil. photo of product purchased is below, note the amber colour.

              After 1 week of using T3, I see turquoise-blue residue in bottom valve caps and on the tissue used to clean the piston casing bore. This can be only one thing: copper sulphate. This means the T3 is reacting to the brass in my horn, causing copper to leach from the brass. This means the T3 must contain sulphur, which accounts for the amber colour; and, it must be active sulphur.

              Why sulphur? Sulphur can bond to other metals and provide a very smooth surface to enhance lubrication. 'Active' sulphur will bond under very low temperatures: 'inactive' requires high temperatures. But active sulphur is also corrosive to certain metals, notably brass.

              Both sulphur and copper-sulphate are toxic.

              NONE OF THIS IS DISCLOSED BY TROMBA IN ITS PRODUCT LITERATURE NOR LABEL. Tromba should be sued in a class action under many counts.

              52a687b0-1a69-4a00-af69-c2236d7a646b-image.png

              Bach Stradivarius Model 37 in silver [180S37], ca 1972.

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • barliman2001
                barliman2001 Global Moderator last edited by

                All valve oils can age, specially under the influence of light, and will then change their colour. THIS IS A SIGN THAT THIS OIL SHOULD NOT BE USED ANYMORE, according to trumpet makers Hermann Ganter (RIP) and Gerd Dowids. Your picture clearly shows a bottle of T3 that has aged for several years. Originally, it is crystal clear and without colour, as shown by this picture:
                https://www.thomann.de/de/la_tromba_ag_t3_valve_oil_ultra_thin.htm

                Courtois Balanced
                Courtois D
                Olds Recording
                Buescher Aristocrat
                Gaudet C
                Selmer G
                Courtois 154 Flugelhorn
                Besson International Bb cornet
                Courtois Bb cornet
                B&H Sovereign Soprano Cornet
                B&H Sovereign trombone
                Willy Garreis trombone
                Weltklang Euph

                GeorgeB grune 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • GeorgeB
                  GeorgeB @barliman2001 last edited by

                  @barliman2001

                  Is La Tromba synthetic or petroleum ?

                  1960s King Super 20 Silversonic, 1940 Olds Recording, 1942 Buescher True Tone 400 ,1999 Conn Vintage One Bb trumpet, A 1952 Selmer Paris, A 2020 Getzen 400 and a Manchester Brass ACB custom pro Bb trumpet, a 1962 Conn Victor 5A Cornet.

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • grune
                    grune @barliman2001 last edited by

                    @barliman2001
                    A very interesting point. If the oil has a shelf life, then why is the expiry date not noted on the label? And, if the oil does have toxic or corrosive compounds, why are these not noted on the label?

                    Bach Stradivarius Model 37 in silver [180S37], ca 1972.

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • barliman2001
                      barliman2001 Global Moderator last edited by

                      Oils, when kept in the dark - as the paper box usually tells us - don't age for several years, that's why. If you keep them in the light - such as shop shelving for too long, they can suffer from exposure.

                      Courtois Balanced
                      Courtois D
                      Olds Recording
                      Buescher Aristocrat
                      Gaudet C
                      Selmer G
                      Courtois 154 Flugelhorn
                      Besson International Bb cornet
                      Courtois Bb cornet
                      B&H Sovereign Soprano Cornet
                      B&H Sovereign trombone
                      Willy Garreis trombone
                      Weltklang Euph

                      grune 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • Kehaulani
                        Kehaulani Credentialed Professional @IrishTrumpeter last edited by

                        @IrishTrumpeter said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

                        @Dr-GO said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

                        @djeffers78 said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

                        Preferably Hetmans 2
                        But anything works fine as long as it’s not Blue Juice
                        If Holton oil was still a thing I’d still use it. I’ve heard Linzoil is the same but haven’t tried it

                        I used both Holton (my initial favorite) and Blue Juice. I also was tempted by Monster Oil. Of these Monster Oil really slowed down my valve action, Blue Juice was just OK, and Holton did fine. However Ultra Pure gives me the fastest action, lasts the longest and leaves less residue in between oiling as I noted from wiping down the valves prior to re applying oil. Learned the valve wipe down technique from Rowuk.

                        Hey Dr Go - would you have a link/description of the Valve wipedown technique?

                        "The Valve-cleating Technique"? LOL. It's just cleaning you valves, isn't it?
                        See if this is what you're looking for:

                        Benge 3X
                        Martin Committee
                        Getzen Capri Cornet
                        Adams F-1 Flugelhorn

                        "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn."
                        Charlie Parker

                        "Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
                        Chet Baker

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                        • Dr GO
                          Dr GO @IrishTrumpeter last edited by

                          @IrishTrumpeter said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

                          Hey Dr Go - would you have a link/description of the Valve wipedown technique?

                          The video above is for a compulsive cleaning. With weekly oiling, I skip all but the wipe down of the pistons. That I always do, and will also clear away all of the biofilm on the rim of the valve bore.

                          Allora Pocket Trumpet 2014
                          Harrelson Summit 2017
                          Kanstul 1526 2012
                          Getzen Power Bore 1961
                          Getzen Eterna 4-Valve Fulgelhorn 1974
                          Martin Committee 1946
                          Olds Super Recording 1940
                          Olds Recording (LA) 1953
                          Olds Recording (Fullerton) 1967
                          Olds Ambassador 1965

                          tmd Kehaulani 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 2
                          • tmd
                            tmd @Dr GO last edited by

                            @Dr-GO said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

                            @IrishTrumpeter said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

                            Hey Dr Go - would you have a link/description of the Valve wipedown technique?

                            The video above is for a compulsive cleaning. With weekly oiling, I skip all but the wipe down of the pistons. That I always do, and will also clear away all of the biofilm on the rim of the valve bore.

                            Same here. I use a lint-free cloth to wipe down the valves and valve casings. I also use a tissue to wipe out any grime from the bottom valve vent and the valve caps. Then I re-oil the valves. I do this once a week.

                            These are the cloths I use.
                            https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0050R68LS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title

                            Mike

                            Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
                            Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
                            Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • Kehaulani
                              Kehaulani Credentialed Professional @Dr GO last edited by Kehaulani

                              @Dr-GO said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:
                              The video above is for a compulsive cleaning. With weekly oiling, I skip all but the wipe down of the pistons. That I always do, and will also clear away all of the biofilm on the rim of the valve bore.

                              Seems to me that the OP is a novice so thorough orientation might be in order.

                              Benge 3X
                              Martin Committee
                              Getzen Capri Cornet
                              Adams F-1 Flugelhorn

                              "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn."
                              Charlie Parker

                              "Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
                              Chet Baker

                              Dr GO 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • Dr GO
                                Dr GO @Kehaulani last edited by Dr GO

                                @Kehaulani said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

                                Seems to me that the O is a novice so thorough orientation might be in order.

                                Orientation on how to oil valves? Do you compulsively take apart your trumpet every week to clean out the casings, run cloth through the pistons, then oil... from what the video shows as a 5 minute process? The quick wipe down that Mike and I use (Rowuk as well) takes under a minute. Seems to me that the K has a compulsion and a visit to his psychologist might be in order.

                                Allora Pocket Trumpet 2014
                                Harrelson Summit 2017
                                Kanstul 1526 2012
                                Getzen Power Bore 1961
                                Getzen Eterna 4-Valve Fulgelhorn 1974
                                Martin Committee 1946
                                Olds Super Recording 1940
                                Olds Recording (LA) 1953
                                Olds Recording (Fullerton) 1967
                                Olds Ambassador 1965

                                Kehaulani 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • Kehaulani
                                  Kehaulani Credentialed Professional @Dr GO last edited by

                                  @Dr-GO said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:
                                  Orientation on how to oil valves?

                                  Well evidently or he wouldn't have asked the question.

                                  Benge 3X
                                  Martin Committee
                                  Getzen Capri Cornet
                                  Adams F-1 Flugelhorn

                                  "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn."
                                  Charlie Parker

                                  "Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
                                  Chet Baker

                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • grune
                                    grune @barliman2001 last edited by

                                    @barliman2001
                                    Age would not alter the elements, thus the sulphur would be present in old and new oil. Again, sulphur is highly corrosive to brass and toxic to humans. The presence of sulphur should be noted on the label.

                                    Bach Stradivarius Model 37 in silver [180S37], ca 1972.

                                    barliman2001 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • GeorgeB
                                      GeorgeB last edited by

                                      The video shown here is exactly the way I was taught
                                      ( many moons ago...well 1953 to be exact ) to properly maintain the valves, but not every time you oil them. I used to do the complete thing maybe every third or fourth week, depending on how much playing I had been doing.

                                      1960s King Super 20 Silversonic, 1940 Olds Recording, 1942 Buescher True Tone 400 ,1999 Conn Vintage One Bb trumpet, A 1952 Selmer Paris, A 2020 Getzen 400 and a Manchester Brass ACB custom pro Bb trumpet, a 1962 Conn Victor 5A Cornet.

                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • barliman2001
                                        barliman2001 Global Moderator @grune last edited by

                                        @grune said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

                                        @barliman2001
                                        Age would not alter the elements, thus the sulphur would be present in old and new oil. Again, sulphur is highly corrosive to brass and toxic to humans. The presence of sulphur should be noted on the label.

                                        As far as I know, any petroleum distillate contains a small amount of sulphur because this is a natural ingredient of crude oil.

                                        Courtois Balanced
                                        Courtois D
                                        Olds Recording
                                        Buescher Aristocrat
                                        Gaudet C
                                        Selmer G
                                        Courtois 154 Flugelhorn
                                        Besson International Bb cornet
                                        Courtois Bb cornet
                                        B&H Sovereign Soprano Cornet
                                        B&H Sovereign trombone
                                        Willy Garreis trombone
                                        Weltklang Euph

                                        Dr GO grune 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • Dr GO
                                          Dr GO @barliman2001 last edited by

                                          @barliman2001 said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:
                                          ...sulphur ...a natural ingredient of crude oil.

                                          Which would explain why the call it crude.

                                          Allora Pocket Trumpet 2014
                                          Harrelson Summit 2017
                                          Kanstul 1526 2012
                                          Getzen Power Bore 1961
                                          Getzen Eterna 4-Valve Fulgelhorn 1974
                                          Martin Committee 1946
                                          Olds Super Recording 1940
                                          Olds Recording (LA) 1953
                                          Olds Recording (Fullerton) 1967
                                          Olds Ambassador 1965

                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • grune
                                            grune @barliman2001 last edited by

                                            @barliman2001 re distillates. respectively, in a word, incorrect.

                                            Bach Stradivarius Model 37 in silver [180S37], ca 1972.

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