Please help me to understand something...

flugelgirl

So, sexual harassment isn’t always about sex. It can also be about power. When someone takes up your personal space, tells jokes or stories only intended to make you uncomfortable, throws a tantrum in a room full of people and yet throws their wrath at you specifically- these things can be sexual harassment too. Maybe they don’t want to date you, but they just don’t like that you are there, and maybe occupy a position either that they want, or think someone else should have. During my time in the military, I saw lots of this stuff, and stood up for myself and others more times than I can count.
I don’t know what the circumstances were in this case, but given that military members are allowed to date(as long as regulations are not broken), orchestras must have similar policies. I have no doubt, though, that if charges were brought up something unwelcome happened, and hope that what came from the arbitration was good for both parties.
And as for the woman who was forced to write a letter about something that didn’t happen or lose her job, she should have charged her boss for that.

A Former User

@flugelgirl said in Please help me to understand something...:

. I have no doubt, though, that if charges were brought up something unwelcomed happened.

I'm not so sure who the party was that was offended. The dismissal was based on "unspecified sexual misconduct". Here's a snippet from the New York Times
“The Philharmonic dismissed the players — its principal oboist, Liang Wang, and associate principal trumpet, Matthew Muckey — in September 2018. Both men denied wrongdoing, and the players’ union filed a grievance challenging their dismissals. The case was heard by an independent arbitrator, who found that the players had been terminated without just cause and should be reinstated.” – The New York Times
Like I said in a previous post, these guys could have easily been doing things that were acceptable in the privacy of their homes but not on the top of a timpani or in the back row of symphony hall. My guess? the two were caught being a little too intimate in the wrong setting. They wouldn't be the first pair to grab an afternoon delight at work and certainly not the first couple (if that is the case) to get called on the carpet by management for being a little to amorous at work. A lot of people (unfortunately) have a problem with homosexuality. For all we know, principal oboist, Liang Wang, and associate principal trumpet, Matthew Muckey are a couple.

Dr GO

@Dr-Mark said in Please help me to understand something...:

@flugelgirl said in Please help me to understand something...:
... For all we know, principal oboist, Liang Wang, and associate principal trumpet, Matthew Muckey are a couple.

Moral of the this story... just don't duet on company time.

administrator

@Dr-GO said in Please help me to understand something...:

@Dr-Mark said in Please help me to understand something...:

@flugelgirl said in Please help me to understand something...:
... For all we know, principal oboist, Liang Wang, and associate principal trumpet, Matthew Muckey are a couple.

Moral of the this story... just don't duet on company time.

Please refrain from speculating about "what happened." The point of the thread was to help me understand legal/labor disputes in this industry. I thought the two players were fired for good, so this came as a surprise to me.

Dr GO

@administrator said in Please help me to understand something...:

@Dr-GO said in Please help me to understand something...:

@Dr-Mark said in Please help me to understand something...:

@flugelgirl said in Please help me to understand something...:
... For all we know, principal oboist, Liang Wang, and associate principal trumpet, Matthew Muckey are a couple.

Moral of the this story... just don't duet on company time.

Please refrain from speculating about "what happened." The point of the thread was to help me understand legal/labor disputes in this industry. I thought the two players were fired for good, so this came as a surprise to me.

Fired for good is always relative. From above posts, due process is a legal option to pursue. However, due process is not usually a legal requirement for a private corporation. A state or government organization is bound to require due process by legal doctrine of that particular state. If however, a corporation not bound by due process terminates an employee, that employee always has the right to filing legal action (under harassment, violence.. etc) charges.

A Former User

It's a juridical case and the only post here that makes sense is the one from Newell Post, more specific under 5. I can say that because of my 40 year juridical career with labour law as my main business, OK in the Netherlands where we have quite severe laws of labour. But the principle of arbitration is the same. By arbitration both parties have agreed (sometimes by genaral terms and conditions) to bring the case to an arbiter and also that his decision is definitive. The whole system of arbitration is made to prevent endless and very expensive appeals and also to get a relative fast decision. If you don't like the decision in the end that is bad luck.
BTW I feel that our administrator has a certain sympathy for a labour system "at will" and a nineteenth century labour concept in general, but that's exactly the system that give way and opportunity to abuse and other evil.

A Former User

@administrator said in Please help me to understand something...:

Please refrain from speculating about "what happened." The point of the thread was to help me understand legal/labor disputes in this industry. I thought the two players were fired for good, so this came as a surprise to me.

Excuse me! I did this already. Labor disputes are one of my specialties. In fact, I taught everyone who doesn't know, how to protect themselves by getting a witness and what to say to the offending person. I'm the one who suggested that there's an equal possibility that the two people that got fired were doing the hokey poky on company time on company property. Like GO said, "Just don't Duet at work" and they should have been fired for misappropriating company property.
As for speculation, what has every post done? Every post has speculated that it was someone doing someone (possibly a female) wrong. "Harassment" I believe was the word that was bantered around. The reason for them being fired was "Unspecified Sexual Misconduct". When a "person" is being harassed, the news will print something like "Unidentified person alleges sexual harassment" or "women file class-action suit against movie mogul"
Here's something from the NY Times; Notice that it doesn't say "an employee" or a "female worker" it's framed "the Philharmonic verses these two guys for unspecified sexual misconduct**
No details of the allegations against Mr. Wang and Mr. Muckey have been provided. The Philharmonic has said only that the two players “engaged in misconduct,” and in 2018 the orchestra retained Barbara S. Jones, an attorney at Bracewell and a former federal judge, to investigate.
What we have here is the Philharmonic dismissing these guys for "their" behavior which was "Unspecified Sexual Misconduct". Hummmmm?
Is sexual misconduct when a person brings toys to the dance? Can an oboe be considered a toy and in closing, is there a chance the two were being a little "horney"
The way I see it, what they were doing probably was not wrong, they just picked the wrong place to do it. If I'm on the right track (and I probably am) if the symphony thing doesn't work out, there's always the adult movie business.

administrator

So...is the New York Philharmonic not a private organization?

A Former User

@administrator said in Please help me to understand something...:

So...is the New York Philharmonic not a private organization?

THE PHILHARMONIC-SYMPHONY SOCIETY OF NEW YORK, INC.
Notice the INC.? Incorporating a business means turning your sole proprietorship or general partnership into a company formally recognized by your state of incorporation. When a company incorporates, it becomes its own legal business structure set apart from the individuals who founded the business.
As for as being publicly traded? I don't know. But your question is "isn't it private?"
That doesn't factor. You could have a private business and if it's unionized, you need to follow the collective bargaining agreement. To do otherwise is a violation of Federal Labor Laws. Walt Disney threw a hissy fit when his brother Roy negotiated with and helped make Disney unionized while Walt was on vacation. At the time, the Disney studio was having massive strikes and certain Federal rules apply when employees wish to unionize

Kehaulani

This is just so speculative and I don't understand making up scenarios about this which are destructive to these persons' reputations. That and why is one guy is called Wang"?

A Former User

@Kehaulani said in Please help me to understand something...:

This is just so speculative and I don't understand making up scenarios about this which are destructive to these persons' reputations. That and why one guy is called Wang".

Now that was good. But on a serious note, what they did probably wasn't wrong. It was done in the wrong place. The average time for a human to have sex is far less than one might think. Its around 5.4 minutes. The cigarette after sex lasts longer than the sex!

Kehaulani

@Dr-Mark said in Please help me to understand something...:

The average time for a human to have sex is far less than one might think. Its around 5.4 minutes.

That's not what she said.

A Former User

@Kehaulani said in Please help me to understand something...:

That's not what she said.

You're a heck of a man! I want to be like you when I grow up!

Dr GO

@administrator said in Please help me to understand something...:

So...is the New York Philharmonic not a private organization?

Getting back on track, mine and my colleague's organization was (just like NYP) a private organization. We BOTH had no due process. We both hired our own legal council, at great expense, to take the process to the next level, to civil court. I know this process well and I know the pain that the other side inflicts on we the plaintiffs. (Refer to my above description of my colleague for being falsely presented to the court as a hideous sex offender).

So we do not know the facts of the 2 defendants the original OP brought to this thread. The NYP presented them as sexual perpetrators, and their members believe this. HOWEVER the fact remains, these plaintiffs were reinstated through the work of a THIRD PARTY arbitrator working with another THIRD PARTY magistrate of the court that has now told the world they are a quality of persons that can return to the original work force.

People, let's not question what we do not know, but rather let us credit a system the works for people that have been miss-characterized by their workplace, OK. I have been there. I have seen this first hand. This is painful. Yes, my colleague and myself walked away from our experience as much wealthier from our win, but in the end, those scares still linger. The only ones involved not scared by the process are the legal firms representing us that receive 1/3'd of the spoils... and my Federal Government that has so far received $221,000 from my portion of taxes I paid toward my "win" from the settlement.

administrator

@Dr-GO said in Please help me to understand something...:

@administrator said in Please help me to understand something...:

So...is the New York Philharmonic not a private organization?

Getting back on track, mine and my colleague's organization was (just like NYP) a private organization. We BOTH had no due process. We both hired our own legal council, at great expense, to take the process to the next level, to civil court. I know this process well and I know the pain that the other side inflicts on we the plaintiffs. (Refer to my above description of my colleague for being falsely presented to the court as a hideous sex offender).

So we do not know the facts of the 2 defendants the original OP brought to this thread. The NYP presented them as sexual perpetrators, and their members believe this. HOWEVER the fact remains, these plaintiffs were reinstated through the work of a THIRD PARTY arbitrator working with another THIRD PARTY magistrate of the court that has now told the world they are a quality of persons that can return to the original work force.

People, let's not question what we do not know, but rather let us credit a system the works for people that have been miss-characterized by their workplace, OK. I have been there. I have seen this first hand. This is painful. Yes, my colleague and myself walked away from our experience as much wealthier from our win, but in the end, those scares still linger. The only ones involved not scared by the process are the legal firms representing us that receive 1/3'd of the spoils... and my Federal Government that has so far received $221,000 from my portion of taxes I paid toward my "win" from the settlement.

Yes, this kind of stuff can really ruin one's reputation. Reputation is a fickle thing to begin with. Social media makes things worse because people have a tendency to jump on the bandwagon, and we see moral panics on almost a daily basis. I wonder if people even remember what/who they were condemning a month ago?

Dr GO

@FranklinD said in Please help me to understand something...:

It's a juridical case and the only post here that makes sense is the one from Newell Post, more specific under 5.

That depends: Here is item 5: Arbitration is binding. There is no appeal from arbitration except in the very unlikely case that one party can prove malfeasance on the part of the arbitrator. No court ratifies the outcome of an arbitration, although a party to arbitration can go to court to collect on a financial award issued by an arbitrator.

Nothing is untrue about this statement, but there is a hidden nuance within the highlighted portion of this text. One aspect that the arbitrator can put in the final settlement is the statement that the plaintiff (and defendant) in my case waive their right to have this judgement go to trial through the court system. HOWEVER, the only way that the "finalized" process can re-surface is if one side uses the judgement as retaliation against the other. In that case under US law a Federal Crime has been committed and a whole 'nother level of legal process begins... now as a Federal Crime... way beyond the level of civil courts.

A Former User

Dr. Go, that's often the case. There is a big difference between civil law and public law. When somebody hits you there are two problems at the same time: first hitting is forbidden by law so the offender can be prosecuted and get a punishment by criminal law, by a criminal judge, this is public law. At the same time you can have damage and you can reimburse (I hope this is the right word) that damage of the offender by civil law, I think the name is tort law and you can start a civil action against the offender. This is private or civil law and done by a civil law judge. If there are difficult problems you can use in the civil action arbitration instead of going to court to simplify the process and to diminish the costs. Here in Holland in small cases it's possible to do the public and civil thing together but that is pure efficiency related, the system stays the same. To compare with the NYP case: the damage (income, dismissal) can be done by civil court or, as in this case, by arbitration, the criminal side is independent of the civil law thing and can be done, possibly after complaint, by the public prosecuter's office. BTW though it's both called law, public law and civil law are completely different in meaning, system, function of the judge, meaning of the rules and so on. The writer of the article felt a need to be complete but in fact made it a little bit more obscure. I hope this helps.

Dr GO

You know, I did read the discussion of this case story on TH and I just got to say the discussion here has been so much more informative by the comparisons discussed. I am hoping the Administrator as the OP is getting a better understanding behind his original question.

A Former User

@administrator said in Please help me to understand something...:

Yes, this kind of stuff can really ruin one's reputation. Reputation is a fickle thing to begin with. Social media makes things worse because people have a tendency to jump on the bandwagon, and we see moral panics on almost a daily basis. I wonder if people even remember what/who they were condemning a month ago?

You're reading into this in a totally wrong way. Its the human resources of the NYP verses these two guys for "unspecified sexual misconduct". It doesn't say "female alleges sexual harassment at NYP" nor does it say, "member(s) of NYP files sexual assault charges against two members of the NYP.
Yes, sex was involved but the only party offended was the NYP. Like I said, we can plainly read that two young people were caught doing "something" while at work that offended someone who took it to human resources. For all we know, someone who was ultra religious with clout saw these two guys kissing and was offended and complained to human resources. Its NYP human resources v. two young workers. It appears that the only people that were harassed were the two guys that were interrupted while engaging in "unspecified sexual misconduct".

A Former User

@FranklinD
I see you are from Holland. That means you are probably not familiar with laws as it pertains to Labor Law. Here's a little something to help introduce you to the functions of Labor Arbitration in America;
"The standard agreement between parties to an arbitration specifies that the arbitrator’s decision shall be final and binding upon both of them. As such, it is unusual for an arbitrator’s award to be successfully appealed. For more than fifty years courts generally did not consider reviewing or vacating (invalidating) an arbitrator’s award except for these very limited circumstances:

The arbitrator did not write a decision and award in accordance with the terms of the parties’ collective bargaining agreement. For example, many agreements provide that an arbitrator may not add to or change language in the agreement;
The arbitrator decided issues not placed before him or her by the parties;
The arbitrator’s award is incomprehensible;
The arbitrator’s award is contrary to state or federal law; or
The arbitrator engaged in deception or fraud – such as failure to disclose to the parties that he or she is a major stockholder in the employer’s company or is the union representative’s close relative.
In America, the laws as we know them and labor law were separated decades ago because the courts were being inundated with labor cases which 1. cluttered the courts and 2. required specialized knowledge in Labor Law (see the Wagner Act and/or Elkouri & Elkouri "How Arbitration Works" (a great book that I have used more times than I can count).
Also, in America, a citizen can protect themselves from being harmed by another at various levels. In Florida we have a "Stand your ground" law which basically says; Florida's “stand your ground'' law basically says you can use deadly force – such as shooting someone – to defend yourself if you fear for their life, or are afraid of serious bodily injury. In Florida, there is no duty to retreat before using deadly force.
In other words, it's very important to keep one's hands to themselves in Florida or risk the chance of receiving a dirt nap.