What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music



  • Clark Terry often spoke of the use of "time and space" in music. He especially used this topic in describing Count Basie.
    What's some good examples of time and space in music and why it works?



  • Anything Miles Davis. But hear is one that is nothing but space: "Eighty-One" written by Ron Carter:

    What works is that it gets you into the song by enticing you to listen closer.



  • I can barely count correct. As I’ve always struggled with and my Director pointed out in my most recent audition.
    So time and space is very important



  • Another perspective, but the HARDEST thing for me to read on any chart, classical or jazz, are NOT the notes, but the rests. The rests are truly the most important aspect of a musical piece to me, and the print that keeps my vigil most focused, because when not to play is I feel more important that when to play.



  • John Cage?

    For me how to use time and space is conceptual. One thing to keep in mind is that silence can produce anticipation and that it sets up what comes next.

    If anybody wants to get a real handle on how to use silence effectively, it is in Japanese traditional music.



  • Here is an example of use of rests (and notes) in Kenny Dorham's, writing genius in his composition "Short Story" at the swing section:

    ff1d8161-7f37-40c7-8ae1-9e365e0f8b5f-image.png

    Its such a nice use of space in the first series (quarter and eight rest) introducing the first whole not phrase, than a subtle triplet quarter rest to set of the next whole note phrase then bam on beat 3 to bring home the last of the three whole note phrases. Here is how it sound in the song (first entry starts at 0:28):



  • Hi Dr-GO,
    Yes, Miles used time and space a lot. For me, I've found through experience a very interesting thing!
    Years ago I was going through my John Coltrane phase and every solo had every note known to God and man.
    During that time, I did this show at a swank venue and after the show I was dripping with sweat and if asked, I'd say I knocked it out of the park. While packing up, I overheard two guys talking. The first guy said; "Wow that guy on trumpet was good. Did you hear all those notes?" The second guy said "Yes, I heard him. Its a shame he didn't play the melody more often."
    Bingo! Lesson learned. People need to be able to anticipate what's coming up in the song and time to digest what they hear. Now I use a lot of space and I base the usage on how the sound dissipates in the room. Using this method quickly makes one understand that some rooms just suck to perform in!
    Its one of the things I teach students. I tell them to not just listen to their trumpet, listen to their trumpet in relation to the room they are playing in. When we listen to the room when we play, the use of space appears easier to apply.



  • @Dr-GO said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

    the HARDEST thing for me to read on any chart, classical or jazz, are NOT the notes, but the rests.


    EXACTLY! Those frickin' rests bust on me every time. I was playing John Cage's 4'33" not too long ago and came in too early at measure 13.



  • @Dr-Mark said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

    Hi Dr-GO,
    Yes, Miles used time and space a lot. For me, I've found through experience a very interesting thing!
    Years ago I was going through my John Coltrane phase and every solo had every note known to God and man.
    During that time, I did this show at a swank venue and after the show I was dripping with sweat and if asked, I'd say I knocked it out of the park. While packing up, I overheard two guys talking. The first guy said; "Wow that guy on trumpet was good. Did you hear all those notes?" The second guy said "Yes, I heard him. Its a shame he didn't play the melody more often."
    Bingo! Lesson learned. People need to be able to anticipate what's coming up in the song and time to digest what they hear. Now I use a lot of space and I base the usage on how the sound dissipates in the room. Using this method quickly makes one understand that some rooms just suck to perform in!
    Its one of the things I teach students. I tell them to not just listen to their trumpet, listen to their trumpet in relation to the room they are playing in. When we listen to the room when we play, the use of space appears easier to apply.

    I went through my Maynard/Arturo phase in high school. I played very well in all the different groups, but in jazz...every solo I had...I just had to show off. I would play as many notes as I could (faster louder higher) until a new director came in and told me (one on one) “what you’re doing is cool, but you’re not really making music with the group”.

    That was my first real reality hit to feel the group and the song instead of just thinking about mechanics and trying to showcase all the different tricks and skills.

    After that, I began to think much more about the silences between notes and how much of an impact they could have. Those rests can have just as much dramatic impact as a massive explosion of sound.


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    @Dr-GO said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

    Here is an example of use of rests (and notes) in Kenny Dorham's, writing genius in his composition "Short Story" at the swing section:

    ff1d8161-7f37-40c7-8ae1-9e365e0f8b5f-image.png

    Its such a nice use of space in the first series (quarter and eight rest) introducing the first whole not phrase, than a subtle triplet quarter rest to set of the next whole note phrase then bam on beat 3 to bring home the last of the three whole note phrases. Here is how it sound in the song (first entry starts at 0:28):

    I view this subject in completely the opposite way. Rests are there to make up the whole. Play the notes where they need to be. In the quoted example the 16ths and triplet quarters play right up to the next long note. Concentrate on getting the phrase of played notes; the rests take care of themselves. This is a big subject in my Trumpet Saturday gatherings. Brick buildings are made of brick, the mortar just fills in the gaps and keeps them aligned.



  • @Kujo20 said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

    @Dr-Mark said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

    I went through my Maynard/Arturo phase in high school. Interesting.

    That just shows the difference in personalities and value systems. I never had a Maynard/Arturo phase. I was always much more interested in Miles, Chet, Freddie and the like. I certainly was impressed by the high notes from Maynard, Chase, Cat Anderson but way more impressed by the improvisors, even lead players with range but with less showy style, like Conrad Gozzo.

    BTW, my technique was just fine, making all-state band, orchestra and choir even with special waiver to play in all-state high school band while in Jr. high, so not making excuses for poor chops.

    I wasn't being facetious about reading John Cage's Silence. It not only deals with sound and silence, it even introduces being aware of ambient or "background" sound that fills in the space in "silence". I was raise mostly in Japan and Hawai'i among mainly Japanese-Americans so my aesthetics on sound and silence is perhaps with a different default sensitivity.

    If you listen to latter Miles you hear a wall of contemporary sound, yet his personal playing still relies a great deal on space and silence. One aesthete of his is that in his spaces, there is still sound of interest going on in the other instruments. Some might call it a rhythm section. but they are actually co-creators in the music and their sound in his silences are not breaks in the music, but a continuum simply without his voice.



  • @Kehaulani said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

    I wasn't being facetious about reading John Cage's Silence.


    I know. I was just pulling a funny on Dr-GO about 4'33"



  • @Dr-Mark said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

    @Kehaulani said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

    I wasn't being facetious about reading John Cage's Silence.


    I know. I was just pulling a funny on Dr-GO about 4'33"

    LOL.



  • @Kehaulani said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

    @Kujo20 said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

    @Dr-Mark said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

    I went through my Maynard/Arturo phase in high school. Interesting.

    That just shows the difference in personalities and value systems. I never had a Maynard/Arturo phase. I was always much more interested in Miles, Chet, Freddie and the like. I certainly was impressed by the high notes from Maynard, Chase, Cat Anderson but way more impressed by the improvisors, even lead players with range but with less showy style, like Conrad Gozzo.

    BTW, my technique was just fine, making all-state band, orchestra and choir even with special waiver to play in all-state high school band while in Jr. high, so not making excuses for poor chops.

    I wasn't being facetious about reading John Cage's Silence. It not only deals with sound and silence, it even introduces being aware of ambient or "background" sound that fills in the space in "silence". I was raise mostly in Japan and Hawai'i among mainly Japanese-Americans so my aesthete on sound and silence is perhaps with a different default sensitivity.

    If you listen to latter Miles you hear a wall of contemporary sound, yet his personal playing still relays a great deal on space and silence. One aesthete of his is that in his spaces, there is still sound of interest going on in the other instruments. Some might call it a rhythm section. but they are actually co-creators in the music and their sound in his silences are not breaks in the music, but a continuum simply without his voice.

    My “Maynard/Arturo” phase was short lived, trust me! Thanks partially to that director, and thanks partially because you can only listen to so many screeching high notes before you get a headache.

    Trumpet was my first instrument, but far from the only one I played in high school. Most of my musical influences were not trumpet players...and if they were it was more for their flugelhorn playing and sound (Roy Hargrove, Art Farmer, Clark Terry).



  • How about.....slow groove instead of fast groove.



  • Hi Niner,
    It sounds like Willie Nelson should be singing along with B.B., "The night life, ain't no good life, but its my life"


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