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    What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music

    Pedagogy
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    • ?
      A Former User last edited by

      Clark Terry often spoke of the use of "time and space" in music. He especially used this topic in describing Count Basie.
      What's some good examples of time and space in music and why it works?

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      • Dr GO
        Dr GO last edited by Dr GO

        Anything Miles Davis. But hear is one that is nothing but space: "Eighty-One" written by Ron Carter:

        What works is that it gets you into the song by enticing you to listen closer.

        Allora Pocket Trumpet 2014
        Harrelson Summit 2017
        Kanstul 1526 2012
        Getzen Power Bore 1961
        Getzen Eterna 4-Valve Fulgelhorn 1974
        Martin Committee 1946
        Olds Super Recording 1940
        Olds Recording (LA) 1953
        Olds Recording (Fullerton) 1967
        Olds Ambassador 1965

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        • D
          djeffers78 last edited by

          I can barely count correct. As I’ve always struggled with and my Director pointed out in my most recent audition.
          So time and space is very important

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          • Dr GO
            Dr GO last edited by

            Another perspective, but the HARDEST thing for me to read on any chart, classical or jazz, are NOT the notes, but the rests. The rests are truly the most important aspect of a musical piece to me, and the print that keeps my vigil most focused, because when not to play is I feel more important that when to play.

            Allora Pocket Trumpet 2014
            Harrelson Summit 2017
            Kanstul 1526 2012
            Getzen Power Bore 1961
            Getzen Eterna 4-Valve Fulgelhorn 1974
            Martin Committee 1946
            Olds Super Recording 1940
            Olds Recording (LA) 1953
            Olds Recording (Fullerton) 1967
            Olds Ambassador 1965

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            • Kehaulani
              Kehaulani Credentialed Professional last edited by

              John Cage?

              For me how to use time and space is conceptual. One thing to keep in mind is that silence can produce anticipation and that it sets up what comes next.

              If anybody wants to get a real handle on how to use silence effectively, it is in Japanese traditional music.

              Benge 3X
              Martin Committee
              Getzen Capri Cornet
              Adams F-1 Flugelhorn

              "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn."
              Charlie Parker

              "Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
              Chet Baker

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              • Dr GO
                Dr GO last edited by Dr GO

                Here is an example of use of rests (and notes) in Kenny Dorham's, writing genius in his composition "Short Story" at the swing section:

                ff1d8161-7f37-40c7-8ae1-9e365e0f8b5f-image.png

                Its such a nice use of space in the first series (quarter and eight rest) introducing the first whole not phrase, than a subtle triplet quarter rest to set of the next whole note phrase then bam on beat 3 to bring home the last of the three whole note phrases. Here is how it sound in the song (first entry starts at 0:28):

                Allora Pocket Trumpet 2014
                Harrelson Summit 2017
                Kanstul 1526 2012
                Getzen Power Bore 1961
                Getzen Eterna 4-Valve Fulgelhorn 1974
                Martin Committee 1946
                Olds Super Recording 1940
                Olds Recording (LA) 1953
                Olds Recording (Fullerton) 1967
                Olds Ambassador 1965

                T 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • ?
                  A Former User @Dr GO last edited by A Former User

                  Hi Dr-GO,
                  Yes, Miles used time and space a lot. For me, I've found through experience a very interesting thing!
                  Years ago I was going through my John Coltrane phase and every solo had every note known to God and man.
                  During that time, I did this show at a swank venue and after the show I was dripping with sweat and if asked, I'd say I knocked it out of the park. While packing up, I overheard two guys talking. The first guy said; "Wow that guy on trumpet was good. Did you hear all those notes?" The second guy said "Yes, I heard him. Its a shame he didn't play the melody more often."
                  Bingo! Lesson learned. People need to be able to anticipate what's coming up in the song and time to digest what they hear. Now I use a lot of space and I base the usage on how the sound dissipates in the room. Using this method quickly makes one understand that some rooms just suck to perform in!
                  Its one of the things I teach students. I tell them to not just listen to their trumpet, listen to their trumpet in relation to the room they are playing in. When we listen to the room when we play, the use of space appears easier to apply.

                  Kujo20 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • ?
                    A Former User @Dr GO last edited by

                    @Dr-GO said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

                    the HARDEST thing for me to read on any chart, classical or jazz, are NOT the notes, but the rests.


                    EXACTLY! Those frickin' rests bust on me every time. I was playing John Cage's 4'33" not too long ago and came in too early at measure 13.

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                    • Kujo20
                      Kujo20 @Guest last edited by

                      @Dr-Mark said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

                      Hi Dr-GO,
                      Yes, Miles used time and space a lot. For me, I've found through experience a very interesting thing!
                      Years ago I was going through my John Coltrane phase and every solo had every note known to God and man.
                      During that time, I did this show at a swank venue and after the show I was dripping with sweat and if asked, I'd say I knocked it out of the park. While packing up, I overheard two guys talking. The first guy said; "Wow that guy on trumpet was good. Did you hear all those notes?" The second guy said "Yes, I heard him. Its a shame he didn't play the melody more often."
                      Bingo! Lesson learned. People need to be able to anticipate what's coming up in the song and time to digest what they hear. Now I use a lot of space and I base the usage on how the sound dissipates in the room. Using this method quickly makes one understand that some rooms just suck to perform in!
                      Its one of the things I teach students. I tell them to not just listen to their trumpet, listen to their trumpet in relation to the room they are playing in. When we listen to the room when we play, the use of space appears easier to apply.

                      I went through my Maynard/Arturo phase in high school. I played very well in all the different groups, but in jazz...every solo I had...I just had to show off. I would play as many notes as I could (faster louder higher) until a new director came in and told me (one on one) “what you’re doing is cool, but you’re not really making music with the group”.

                      That was my first real reality hit to feel the group and the song instead of just thinking about mechanics and trying to showcase all the different tricks and skills.

                      After that, I began to think much more about the silences between notes and how much of an impact they could have. Those rests can have just as much dramatic impact as a massive explosion of sound.

                      Kujo
                      1916 Holton Revelation Cornet
                      2016 Schlub Brass Works “Damar” 4V Flugelhorn
                      Martin 9 mouthpiece
                      Al Cass prototype flugel mouthpiece

                      Kehaulani 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • T
                        Trumpetsplus Qualified Repair Techs Credentialed Professional @Dr GO last edited by

                        @Dr-GO said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

                        Here is an example of use of rests (and notes) in Kenny Dorham's, writing genius in his composition "Short Story" at the swing section:

                        ff1d8161-7f37-40c7-8ae1-9e365e0f8b5f-image.png

                        Its such a nice use of space in the first series (quarter and eight rest) introducing the first whole not phrase, than a subtle triplet quarter rest to set of the next whole note phrase then bam on beat 3 to bring home the last of the three whole note phrases. Here is how it sound in the song (first entry starts at 0:28):

                        I view this subject in completely the opposite way. Rests are there to make up the whole. Play the notes where they need to be. In the quoted example the 16ths and triplet quarters play right up to the next long note. Concentrate on getting the phrase of played notes; the rests take care of themselves. This is a big subject in my Trumpet Saturday gatherings. Brick buildings are made of brick, the mortar just fills in the gaps and keeps them aligned.

                        Ivan Hunter
                        Player, Designer, Builder, Writer, Teacher, Repairer
                        Jaeger Trumpets
                        Convener of Trumpet4Fun Trumpet Saturdays

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                        • Kehaulani
                          Kehaulani Credentialed Professional @Kujo20 last edited by Kehaulani

                          @Kujo20 said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

                          @Dr-Mark said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

                          I went through my Maynard/Arturo phase in high school. Interesting.

                          That just shows the difference in personalities and value systems. I never had a Maynard/Arturo phase. I was always much more interested in Miles, Chet, Freddie and the like. I certainly was impressed by the high notes from Maynard, Chase, Cat Anderson but way more impressed by the improvisors, even lead players with range but with less showy style, like Conrad Gozzo.

                          BTW, my technique was just fine, making all-state band, orchestra and choir even with special waiver to play in all-state high school band while in Jr. high, so not making excuses for poor chops.

                          I wasn't being facetious about reading John Cage's Silence. It not only deals with sound and silence, it even introduces being aware of ambient or "background" sound that fills in the space in "silence". I was raise mostly in Japan and Hawai'i among mainly Japanese-Americans so my aesthetics on sound and silence is perhaps with a different default sensitivity.

                          If you listen to latter Miles you hear a wall of contemporary sound, yet his personal playing still relies a great deal on space and silence. One aesthete of his is that in his spaces, there is still sound of interest going on in the other instruments. Some might call it a rhythm section. but they are actually co-creators in the music and their sound in his silences are not breaks in the music, but a continuum simply without his voice.

                          Benge 3X
                          Martin Committee
                          Getzen Capri Cornet
                          Adams F-1 Flugelhorn

                          "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn."
                          Charlie Parker

                          "Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
                          Chet Baker

                          ? Kujo20 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • ?
                            A Former User @Kehaulani last edited by

                            @Kehaulani said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

                            I wasn't being facetious about reading John Cage's Silence.


                            I know. I was just pulling a funny on Dr-GO about 4'33"

                            Kehaulani 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • Kehaulani
                              Kehaulani Credentialed Professional @Guest last edited by

                              @Dr-Mark said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

                              @Kehaulani said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

                              I wasn't being facetious about reading John Cage's Silence.


                              I know. I was just pulling a funny on Dr-GO about 4'33"

                              LOL.

                              Benge 3X
                              Martin Committee
                              Getzen Capri Cornet
                              Adams F-1 Flugelhorn

                              "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn."
                              Charlie Parker

                              "Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
                              Chet Baker

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • Kujo20
                                Kujo20 @Kehaulani last edited by

                                @Kehaulani said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

                                @Kujo20 said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

                                @Dr-Mark said in What's Your View On the Use of Time and Space In Music:

                                I went through my Maynard/Arturo phase in high school. Interesting.

                                That just shows the difference in personalities and value systems. I never had a Maynard/Arturo phase. I was always much more interested in Miles, Chet, Freddie and the like. I certainly was impressed by the high notes from Maynard, Chase, Cat Anderson but way more impressed by the improvisors, even lead players with range but with less showy style, like Conrad Gozzo.

                                BTW, my technique was just fine, making all-state band, orchestra and choir even with special waiver to play in all-state high school band while in Jr. high, so not making excuses for poor chops.

                                I wasn't being facetious about reading John Cage's Silence. It not only deals with sound and silence, it even introduces being aware of ambient or "background" sound that fills in the space in "silence". I was raise mostly in Japan and Hawai'i among mainly Japanese-Americans so my aesthete on sound and silence is perhaps with a different default sensitivity.

                                If you listen to latter Miles you hear a wall of contemporary sound, yet his personal playing still relays a great deal on space and silence. One aesthete of his is that in his spaces, there is still sound of interest going on in the other instruments. Some might call it a rhythm section. but they are actually co-creators in the music and their sound in his silences are not breaks in the music, but a continuum simply without his voice.

                                My “Maynard/Arturo” phase was short lived, trust me! Thanks partially to that director, and thanks partially because you can only listen to so many screeching high notes before you get a headache.

                                Trumpet was my first instrument, but far from the only one I played in high school. Most of my musical influences were not trumpet players...and if they were it was more for their flugelhorn playing and sound (Roy Hargrove, Art Farmer, Clark Terry).

                                Kujo
                                1916 Holton Revelation Cornet
                                2016 Schlub Brass Works “Damar” 4V Flugelhorn
                                Martin 9 mouthpiece
                                Al Cass prototype flugel mouthpiece

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                                • ?
                                  A Former User last edited by

                                  How about.....slow groove instead of fast groove.

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                                  • ?
                                    A Former User @Guest last edited by

                                    Hi Niner,
                                    It sounds like Willie Nelson should be singing along with B.B., "The night life, ain't no good life, but its my life"

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