Martin Committee Cornets - Why So Cheap, comparatively ???

[MasterWannabe]

I have come across a Martin Committee Deluxe cornet with a serial number less than 200,000 with an asking price of less than $1,000. In some extensive research several years back I was told that the Martin horns with serial numbers less than 200,000 were the best quality horns an serials higher shoud be more closely scrutinized. I have a Handcraft Imperial trumpet #12xxxx and it would appear that advice/knowledge seems to hold true. In watching Martin horns a lot I am puzzled as to why the cornets seem to be less desired/valued. I have actually seen some Committee cornets sell for $500.
Can anyone educate me on this ???

[Kehaulani]

There are cornets on the market today that just meet the demands of today's musicians better.

[flugelgirl]

There are also not as many people playing long American cornets. The shepherds crook are much better sellers, primarily for British brass band and solo use.

[Richard III]

Check TB and TH for cornet discussions. They generally don't go on very long and are not frequent. Many trumpet players have never played a cornet. Many players have no idea what they would do with a cornet.

So, small market with limited interest answers your question.

[administrator]

Those are wonky cornets. The trumpets are perfect for jazz. What are the cornets perfect for?

I have a Shepherd's Crook cornet for the occasional brass band style playing I do. I do not like American-style cornets. They play and sound just like trumpets.

[Kehaulani]

To clarify, "they" refers to American cornets (and I do not concur, BTW).

[Trumpetb]

Here are three players cutting a rug, Al Hirt on trumpet Pete Candoli on trumpet and Red Nichols on cornet.

I am not sure the instruments that Pete and AL played on in this clip but I believe Red played on his regular 1937 Olds Super L.A. cornet.

I dont see how trumpet players would have a problem with a cornet they have the same range and both have the same 3 valves that work in the same way.

Why should they be different as long as the mouthpiece for each is selected with care.

And on the topic of the thread, I believe there is no reason to believe the committee cornet to be in any way inferior to the committee trumpet

[MasterWannabe]

@administrator said in Martin Committee Cornets - Why So Cheap, comparatively ???:

Those are wonky cornets. The trumpets are perfect for jazz. What are the cornets perfect for?

I have a Shepherd's Crook cornet for the occasional brass band style playing I do. I do not like American-style cornets. They play and sound just like trumpets.

Excuse me if I sound impertinent but how do you define "wonky" ?

[administrator]

@masterwannabe said in Martin Committee Cornets - Why So Cheap, comparatively ???:

@administrator said in Martin Committee Cornets - Why So Cheap, comparatively ???:

Those are wonky cornets. The trumpets are perfect for jazz. What are the cornets perfect for?

I have a Shepherd's Crook cornet for the occasional brass band style playing I do. I do not like American-style cornets. They play and sound just like trumpets.

Excuse me if I sound impertinent but how do you define "wonky" ?

To me, my experience with American cornets has been exceptionally mediocre. The ones I have played have been out of tune, stuffy, and trumpet-ty. That's not what I look for in a cornet.

[barliman2001]

@administrator Then you chose the wrong cornets to play. I've got a Buescher 265 that is so fantastic in sound and handleability that it has become my main big band axe for anything going into the lower register. In that role, it can match my main big band trumpet - an Olds Recording!

[Kehaulani]

"To me, my experience with American cornets has been exceptionally mediocre. The ones I have played have been out of tune, stuffy . .

Interesting. When I played in the UNT Concert Band, we had a cornet section and a trumpet section. Connstellation cornets. The band director hated jazz and trumpets so., I'm assuming he could hear the difference.

Years later, I had a professional concert band with (when appropriate) cornets, this time Getzen Shephard crooked horns. I can assure anyone it made a difference.

[Trumpetb]

First of all there is no doubt that the members in here are all of a very high quality and any difference is not going to be due to any lack or otherwise of skills.

My own experience is that all instruments are different and that goes for differences between trumpets and trumpets between cornets and cornets and between cornets and trumpets.

They do play differently there is no doubt but it is subtle and can easily trip me up.

When I grab a cornet or a trumpet and begin to blow the instrument can easily say to me, whoa buddy just who do you think you are then it opposes me and squeeks at me. But if I blow sympathetically the instrument rewards me and plays beautifully. It can sometimes take a lot of work,

The venerable long cornet Conn 80a, sold 24,000 units over a 50 year period, you dont sell that many units if the instruments fundamentally are out of tune or stuffy. I would look elsewhere for the explanation of why.

I would suggest that maybe it is the approach of the player, the differences in air support, the embouchure, the blow, the tonal concept, the articulation, and a heap of other things that we bring to our performance that is where the main differences between the cornet and the trumpet lie.

What works on a trumpet does not always work on a cornet and vice versa.

[J. Jericho]

@trumpetb Matching mouthpiece to sound concept is a part of the process of creating different timbres, too. Of course, the instrument has to agree with your choice, or what comes out the bell will be disappointing and troublesome.

[administrator]

I suppose I don't have enough experience to make a qualified statement regarding these instruments. I retract my past statements, but for posterity's sake I will leave them up.

[Trumpetb]

@J-Jericho aint that the truth.

There is the additional element of driver that is critically important and the drivers mouthpiece choice is part of the mix and can defeat the whole enterprise or enhance it.

We talk of cornet and trumpet as though they are different and to some extent they are but I liken this to different cars

A station wagon is different to an offroader a daytona 500 racer is different to a drag racer and all are different to a formula1 but they are all cars and all require different driving styles.

Is a maybach an automobile and a bmw 500 series is a car, both do the same job but both drive differently.

It seems churlish to say if you want a car you have to buy a bmw because a maybach is not really a car.

Shepherds crook cornet players often say an american long cornet is not really a true cornet, so it must be a trumpet or a flugel or should we make up a new name for it.

As far as I am aware the civil war cornets did not play the same as shepherds crook cornets do today so it is reasonable to ask, if a civil war cornet is a real cornet how can it be claimed that a modern shepherds crook cornet is a real cornet.

Or are we going to claim that whatever we like is the real deal and in a few years when we prefer something else we will ditch the shepherds crook cornet as not being a real cornet after all.

I think the truth is many people claim that the instrument they like is the only authentic instrument and all the others are not. It is a kind of oneupmanship.

Should we invent a new name for peashooter trumpets because they are not real trumpets, and if we change the mouthpiece so the instrument plays differently must we change the name of the instrument, "I am not playing a trumpet I am now playing a mariachi mumpet"

I am all for simplifying things not making them more complex. all vehicles are cars, all trumpets are trumpets all cornets are cornets.

And the committee cornet is a fine instrument.

[Trumpetb]

@administrator your posts are very welcome and come from personal experience honestly stated.

I value your comments and they have as much merit as anyones.

I love this site because we all have our own experiences and we share them and our collective knowledge grows because of it.

Personally speaking I love to be disagreed with, I usually learn something new.

I would go so far as to say that your experiences and similar comments from others perhaps will contribute to better instrument design in the future that could result in better playing american cornets. I think it is important to make these experiences visible so the industry can act upon them.

I want to add this as well your experience of american cornets sounding too like trumpets and stuffiness and tuning issues are experienced is far too common amongst players for us to be dismissive of it and I am glad you stated that.

We cannot run from issues we must face them and your comments helped us face those issues.

long may you keep posting administrator.

[MasterWannabe]

I really appreciate all the comments, it is interesting what one simple question can evoke and maybe I should be a little clearer. My question as 'why cheaper' was specifically referring to the Martin Committee cornets referenced in the title. I know there are many different styles and qualities of cornets and my experience has lead me to believe that cornets as a whole are not as popular as trumpets because they are not as flashy as trumpets especially to the younger players. I am trying to find out why the Martin Committee Deluxe cornet doesn't command a price closer to the price of the Committee trumpet. Personally I subscribe to the thoughts of I think "Rowuk" of the old TM forums when he answered a question about the difference between a student mouthpiece and a pro mouthpiece -" it's more about the software than the hardware !".
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[Trumpetb]

Pardon me for jumping in on the question of the difference between martin committee and martin deluxe committee instruments but I may have some valid comments.

Trent Austin of Austin Custom Brass who I regard as an authority on horns has said that the martin committee deluxe trumpet was produced with additional nickel parts that were not present on the committee trumpet.

The martin committee cornet was also produced in two variants plain brass committee cornet and brass with nickel elements on the committee deluxe cornet.

Trent has said that the addition of more nickel parts on instruments makes the horns play slightly brighter.

This is certainly true with the Olds Special trumpet the special was produced as an all brass instrument and later as an all nickel plated instrument. It is said that the nickel plated version played brighter than the all brass model.

As I understand it many players prefer the darker smoky sound of the all brass committee and this could perhaps explain the higher prices commanded by the original all brass martin committees over the deluxe models with nickel plated parts.

I have never played on any martins so dont roast me on this opinion.

[barliman2001]

@trumpetb No, I won't roast you. I prefer deep-fried.

[Dale Proctor]

The reason older cornets sell for less than their trumpet counterparts is that significantly more people play trumpets than cornets. Lower demand equals lower prices. The people who really want a cornet for performance use are generally in the market for a modern one with intonation aids and a richer tone than many of the older ones from the mid 20th century. Those older cornets are primarily American wrap instruments and are mainly bought by hobbyists and casual players who aren’t willing to spend a lot for an instrument.

Of course, there are exceptions to my diatribe, and a good example is the Conn 9A cornet from 1962 that I own that’s an exceptional player. If a person is educated on which older cornets are the really good ones and is diligent, there are models out there that are nice deals for those looking for a relatively inexpensive cornet that plays without compromise.