Odd Mouthpice

Newell Post

Not long ago, my sister-in-law gave me an old "family heirloom" trumpet that had belonged to a beloved ancestor. The last thing I need is another old trumpet but, not to offend, I gratefully accepted it. I told her that in the trumpet world we have a name for horns like this which is: "lamp." This old "American Leader" was obviously ready for lamp duty about 40 years ago. However, when I looked at the mouthpiece--held on by duct tape, of course--I realized it wasn't really a trumpet mouthpiece, at all. It looks like a flugelhorn mouthpiece, but the shank is too small to fit either my Kanstul or Yamaha flugel. It is marked "Vincent Bach Corp. 7."

I think I have read there are 3 different flugel shanks, and this might be the small one. Are there flugel brands that take smaller shank than Yamaha or Kanstul?

SSmith1226

@Newell-Post

The following site addresses the differences in the various Flugelhorn Shank sizes and gives a list of the various brands of Flugelhorns that use each shank size. You have a Small Morse, or Bach Shank, which would explain your ill fitting mouthpiece.

https://bobreeves.com/blog/the-ultimate-flugelhorn-mouthpiece-shank-guide/

Dale Proctor

Bach flugelhorn mouthpieces do have a slightly smaller shank than a Yamaha, but the size would typically be marked 7FL. Could it be a cornet mouthpiece? A Bach 7 cornet piece would have a really deep cup.

SSmith1226

@Dale-Proctor
Excellent points- 7FL & Bach 7 is a deep cup. Agree with your analysis, probably a cornet mouthpiece.

Newell Post

Thanks, guys. When I first saw it I also assumed it might be a cornet mouthpiece duct taped to a trumpet receiver. However, when I got it off, I could see that it is MUCH deeper than a cornet mouthpiece. The shank actually fits on my cornets fairly well, but it is clearly not a cornet mouthpiece. I would have expected it to be marked 7FL, or something of that nature. But it isn't. Just plain "7." I'll post some photos tomorrow.

Dr GO

@Newell-Post said in Odd Mouthpice:

Thanks, guys. When I first saw it I also assumed it might be a cornet mouthpiece duct taped to a trumpet receiver. However, when I got it off, I could see that it is MUCH deeper than a cornet mouthpiece. The shank actually fits on my cornets fairly well, but it is clearly not a cornet mouthpiece. I would have expected it to be marked 7FL, or something of that nature. But it isn't. Just plain "7." I'll post some photos tomorrow.

I am pretty sure the "Bach" taper is the size fitting the Kanstul flugelhorns. Does this mouthpiece fit your Kanstul? I had my Kanstul flugelhorn mouthpiece made by Flip Oakes as a Bach shank and it too is very deep and fits the Kanstul perfectly.

Trumpetb

If the shank fits your cornets then it is more than likely a cornet mouthpiece.

There are several considerations with cornet mouthpieces.

There are several different tapers on cornets. The Bach taper is pretty standard today but was not standard back in the day.

Bach cornet pieces have more c shaped bowls very much like their trumpet mouthpiece bowl shapes

I have a Bach cornet mouthpiece and the rim measures 16.35 mm whereas the cup depth measures 10.89 mm.
I would class this as a shallow mouthpiece.

For example I have a Wick cornet mouthpiece that measures 17mm rim width and 18.37mm cup depth. I would call this a deep mouthpiece.

A rule of thumb is that modern pieces have bowls shallower than the rim width and the ancient pieces have bowls deeper than the rim width.

This is not a rigid rule many manufacturers make pieces that break this rule of thumb.

The Wick often follows ancient cornet mouthpiece shapes with very deep cup almost vee shaped whereas some Wicks have shallower cups than their rim.

I have an original cornet mouthpiece from the 19th century and that cup shape is very similar to the Wick cup shape measuring 15.9mm rim width and 17.46 cup depth.

This confirms the Denis Wick documentation that claims the Wick cornet mouthpieces originally followed early cornet mouthpiece designs.

It sounds very much like your mouthpiece is an older design than is the current trend. I cannot say for sure without seeing it.

I have a Yamaha 16E cornet mouthpiece and a Yamaha 11E4 cornet mouthpiece both of these represent well modern cornet mouthpieces and they fall fairly close to the modern Bach cornet mouthpiece design. both use the Bach taper.

One characteristic of ancient mouthpiece designs is the shape of the shoulder at the base of the cup where it enters the backbore.

If it is rounded the mouthpiece is probably a later design, if the shoulder is sharp then it is a more ancient design and could be expected to have a deep cup shape. This does not always hold true.

In short I would assume your piece to be simply a much older design of mouthpiece than we are used to seeing today.

robertwerntz

@Newell-Post Hey! Post a picture of the lamp! May be a candidate for the sequel to A Christmas Story, replacing the leg lamp!

Newell Post

The mystery deepens.....

The shank is definitely smaller than either a trumpet or my Kanstul flugel or my Yamaha flugel. It fits on my cornets, but is actually slightly large for the cornets. Also, the cup measures about 13.5mm in diameter whereas my Bach 3C cornet mouthpiece measures about 11mm. (My Yamaha 13F4 flugel mouthpiece is also right at 11mm in diameter, very similar to a cornet mouthpiece diameter.) SO.... the rim is larger than a normal cornet mouthpiece and the cup is much deeper than a trumpet or cornet mouthpiece; however, the shank is slightly larger than normal for a cornet but smaller than a Yamaha flugel mouthpiece. However, it is definitely stamped "Bach 7."

Could this be for something like a mellophone or mellophonium or alto horn or something? Photos attached.

Newell Post

@robertwerntz LOL. I would need to do some soldering before it could even be a stable lamp. And the in-laws would be shocked at the disrespect for their beloved ancestor.

Dale Proctor

My guess is that it’s a mellophone mouthpiece. Although the Bach cup diameter measurements don’t agree with yours, the Bach literature indicates the 7 mellophone mouthpiece cup diameter is 2.5 mm wider than the Bach 3C cornet mouthpiece.

Newell Post

Dale has the right info. The answer is: alto horn based on 2.75" LOA and 0.432" shank diameter at the receiver. Now, how in the world an alto horn mouthpiece got duct taped onto a trumpet is lost to history.

Dale Proctor

@Newell-Post
According to the chart, the end of the alto horn shank is larger than a trumpet shank, and you previously said the mystery mouthpiece shank is smaller than a trumpet shank.

barliman2001

@Newell-Post It's the same as with my Garreis tenor trombone - how in all the world got it fitted with a very small and narrow trumpet mouthpiece before sale??

Newell Post

Well, according to my trusty micrometer, it mics out at 0.419" at the receiver and 0.363" at the tip, which doesn't match any of the dimensions Dale kindly provided. It's probably something made for some antiquated brand of mellophone that doesn't exist any more.

Dale Proctor

@Newell-Post said in Odd Mouthpice:

Well, according to my trusty micrometer, it mics out at 0.419" at the receiver and 0.363" at the tip, which doesn't match any of the dimensions Dale kindly provided. It's probably something made for some antiquated brand of mellophone that doesn't exist any more.

I’d say you truly have an odd mouthpiece, then…

robertwerntz

@Newell-Post