Is It Jazz or Is It Classical?

Trumpetb

@ROWUK I am so much in agreement with your post.

Greatness in my world exists outside of improvisation or technique or articulation or modes or scales or tone or pitch or anything else we can formulate describe demand or govern.

Louis once said "Jazz, you will know it when you hear it"

I would paraphrase that and say Greatness, you will know it when you hear it.

Music can be performed perfectly and yet be clinical and mechanical.

A great performance can be less than perfect and be great non the less.

In a world of computer beats, autotune, and computer generated rhythm, we easily spot the perfection and reject it in favour of the imperfect.

In so many ways the imperfect sounds perfect and this is the ultimate paradox, that is to seek perfection we must embrace the imperfect, or we accept rigid and mechanical offerings.

I am listening to Pavarotti in a 1991 performance as I type this, his performance is less than perfect in many subtle ways and yet it is a great performance from a great man.

administrator

I’ve heard a lot of improv that I would consider pure trash. I would much rather hear a beautiful rendition of a Mozart Piano Sonata than another lousy take on “rhythm changes.”

Trumpetb

@administrator I totally agree.

It is interesting to note that this was as true as much in the baroque and renaissance times as it is now.

The improvs quite often became chaotic and discordant to the displeasure of musicologists of the time.

I guess things eventually come full circle so easily.

Some Jazz improvs are spectacularly beautiful as are many orchestral works. But then some leave me cold in both genres.

When I am reaching for something new I often crash and burn, it comes I think with the territory.

administrator

Now, I would pay good money to hear J.S. Bach improvise!

Kehaulani

@administrator said in Is It Jazz or Is It Classical?:

Now, I would pay good money to hear J.S. Bach improvise!

You do often when you listen to his small group or solo works. So much of that is just him improvising as he catches it on paper.

GeorgeB

@kehaulani
Can you name a couple of J.S.Bach's solo works that might be on you tube ? I would like to hear him improvise.
George

Trumpetb

In defence of Kehaulani who perhaps did not mean that J S Bach himself made any modern recordings, but perhaps was alluding to J S Bachs music performed in a modern setting, which was intended to be improvised from the compositions "caught on paper".

I would agree with kehaulani in this, if this is his meaning, we need to look beyond the superficial performances which can and do vary, but to look at the historical context of the time in which they were composed, to see the intent behind the score.

J S Bach intended there to be improvisation in his works I believe, and this can be seen on this site on the topic of performing his choral works and contemporary works during the Baroque period.

At 5.32 the statement from the time by Praetorius stating "additional instrumental voices or capella which are there only as circumstances allow, for adornment"

Adornment in Baroque choral and instrumental performances from what I have seen of it typically means improvisation.

In my opinion then for what it is worth the Baroque choral works and the choral works of Bachs contemporaries at the time were expected to have an element of improvisation within them in performance.

I see this as strong evidence that J S Bach indeed expected improvisation of the works caught on paper in his compositions as kehaulani perhaps suggests.

GeorgeB

@trumpetb

Yes, that answers a lot of questions I had. Thanks for the video and the comments.
I wasn't questioning Kehaulani. His knowledge of music is way above my head and I have much respect for him for many reasons.
George

Kehaulani

What I meant, George, is that Bach's mind was so fluid and spontaneous that, writing or playing, (for small, intimate settings) nis creative process was the same. Just that one was immediately produced with a musical instrument and the other, paper then instrument. Same process.

Kehaulani

Although with historical antecedents, in the 60s Gunther Schuller coined a new idiom he called "Third Stream". This was a combination of jazz and classical merging.

Perhaps the best antecedent was Ellington's Nutcracker Suite.
.

Third Stream music, or influenced music is:
Music for Brass. (This is just one cut)
Youtube Video

Stan Kenton Neophhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CQtQZ_WPz4onic Orchestra (just one example,)

Youtube Video

Also
"Works that fall under the heading of third stream include Sketches of Spain by Miles Davis, The Gary McFarland Orchestra by Gary McFarland, Focus, a suite for saxophone and strings by Eddie Sauter; Transformation by Schuller, An Image of Man by William Russo, Reimagining Opera by Dario Savino Doronzo | Pietro Gallo, Piece for Clarinet and String Orchestra by Giuffre, Poem for Brass by J.J. Johnson, All About Rosie by George Russell, Seven Songs for Quartet and Chamber Orchestra by Gary Burton, Symbiosis by Claus Ogerman, and Arbour Zena by Keith Jarrett."

Wikipedia

GeorgeB

@kehaulani
Wow, thanks, kehaulani. That will keep me busy for awhile.

George

Trumpetb

ditto the Wow

Kehaulani

IMO, the current Queen of synthesizing all kinds of possible musocal styles is Marie Schneider. Some of her works are on YouTube but she has maintained a very astute control over her works and protection of them for free public access but check pit wjat you can.

administrator

@kehaulani said in Is It Jazz or Is It Classical?:

IMO, the current Queen of synthesizing all kinds of possible musocal styles is Marie Schneider. Some of her works are on YouTube but she has maintained a very astute control over her works and protection of them for free public access but check pit wjat you can.

Yes, she does a good job at that.

SSmith1226

Trumpetb

I know Brandons work and he is exceptional

I believe that blues and jazz are speaking of the natural condition that we all experience, this why jazz reaches into our soul and it resonates with us.

In japan they teach this mantra, learn everything until you can do everything perfectly and precisely, and then throw it all away and just do what comes naturally.

Then we have natural perfection and it is very powerful.

Classical musicians perfect their craft and when they reach this highest level of perfection everything they do will be perfect, and if they can abandon trying to be perfect but then simply play naturally then they transcend perfection into beauty.

And this is what Brandon has done here.

The Japanese Shakugachi player is taught that to try to sound musical is a failure and to try to sound beautiful is a failure, and yet in not trying to sound musical or beautiful they sound both musical and beautiful.

It is a paradox.

Is it Jazz or is it Classical? why can it not be both.

Kehaulani 0

@trumpetb said in Is It Jazz or Is It Classical?:

It is a paradox.

No, it's Japanese, LOL.

J. Jericho

@ssmith1226 If you swing a tune, it's jazz. Example:

Kehaulani 0

It don't mean a thing . . .