@ J, Jericho
Good job you were here to stop me looking like an idiot (sadly I can look like an idiot very easily)
Thank you for your correction, I guess my fingers move quicker than my brain sometimes.
I have gratefully edited the post
respect to you sir and many thanks
That is well said kehaulani much time and effort has been squandered on this topic, but I believe it was right to so squander it.
This is a fundamentally important issue and in my opinion many players early technique has been damaged by misunderstanding buzzing what it is and why it is done.
It is easy to buzz and easy to buzz badly and very hard to stop doing it once you start and then you sound like a hunter calling a duck.
Some of the worst trumpet playing in recorded history is due to this issue of buzzing a note instead of playing a note, and yes there is a difference.
I hope to further expose the fundamental issue by taking the discussion out of trumpet context and into the context of early instruments of 500 years ago. Please indulge me on this it is a salutary lesson and holds a warning to us all on the topic of buzzing I think.
The Zink or cornett or cornetto is a medieval instrument that was popular from years 1450 through to 1650.
This was recognised as the most beautiful sounding instrument beyond any other and the best players were superstars.
It was also recognised as the most difficult to learn, and consisted of a small trumpet mouthpiece set into a woodwind instrument similar to an early wooden flute.
Then the black death came along and wiped out all the makers and players leaving nobody to learn this most difficult instrument from.
Records stating the existence of both makers and players that existed before the black death showed they were entirely missing from society after the black death, it is thought they all died in that outbreak.
With no good players or teachers to learn from the instrument usage completely died out then and performers had to teach themselves, it appears that they believed they should buzz into the mouthpiece cup and this makes sense, a beginner who knows no better believes that buzzing is what you do into a trumpet mouthpiece to make a noise.
For the next 300 years this most beautiful sounding instrument was reported as sounding like the braying of a cow or donkey or duck and nobody was inclined to learn how to play this horrible sounding instrument properly.
During the last 60 years inspired and serious players made great efforts to rediscover how to play this instrument properly and it has now rightly been elevated back to sounding beautiful again.
We have Bruce Dickey to thank for at least some of this work.
Even today buzzing is taught to players wishing to learn to play this instrument that can so easily sound like a cow a donkey or a duck, and I suggest that the story of the Zink could so easily be the story of the trumpet.
I believe that buzzing killed the Zink for 300 years. This topic is that important. I think that DR-GO ROWUK Kehaulani have all made excellent contributions to a very important topic and the admins have done well by allowing this to be explored.
I believe this is monumentally important and feelings can run high on this topic.
Yes Buzzing can be useful and yes Buzzing can be harmful. We are lucky we have great players like DR-GO and Kehaulani we are lucky we have great teachers like ROWUK and this site is lucky to have great admins.
Buzzing is like a two headed snake that can easily bite us but it is useful to have around.
Let us all remember the story of the Zink and beware of bad buzzing.
I dont want to try to tell anyone that their existing solution
to sticking valves is wrong, but I am unhappy with lapping.
I do not believe that lapping is ever necessary unless it is with new built or newly refurbished valves or valves that are too tight in the bore.
If an instrument has great valves that have worked fine without sticking for for 30 years or 50 years, what benefit does lapping bring.
Players love to lap valves the forum is full of advice to lap valves with lapping compound or toothpaste or vim or grinding paste or rouge.
The forum is also full of complaints that valves have lost compression in equal measure.
Removing metal by lapping from a valve that already fits the valve block perfectly, removes dirt and residues and valve metal that is needed to give good compression as well.
The valve has not grown thicker or fatter over time, it has grown fatter simply with dirt and residues that have accreted and stuck to the valve in use.
Techs remove dirt and residues chemically not by grinding the valve surface.
If I have a car with residues and detritus on the paint, I dont rub the paint down with glasspaper or grinding paste to remove the dirt. That removes the paint as well.
I soften the dirt and clean the paint.
If I have sticking valves I remove the dirt and residues that make them stick,
If a valve has been working fine for many years and suddenly starts to stick I clean it I dont shave the metal thinner.
That leads to loss of compression.
I have only one instrument with bad compression, and that has signs of past amateur lapping of the valves possibly to remove the dirt that made the valves stick.
I think the practice of lapping valves should be abandoned unless there is a very good reason to do it.
I would be very disappointed if this site folded.
There is no other site as good as this.
I find the Trumpet Herald site to be flawed and unwelcoming.
I believe that new members are simply waiting for an opportunity to post, I hope they settle in and become more active.
The Mouthpiece is also relatively inactive. I guess Brass playing is far less popular now compared to Guitar woodwind and strings.
Having said that I see a lot of beginners at trumpet so the future while not bright is at least hopeful.
Apologies for jumping in about the possible replating of the valves on this.
Replating could cost between 350 and 500 dollars depending on the shop or tech.
It is a difficult decision and I would want to be convinced that the instrument would be worth beyond this figure before embarking upon it.
Many well respected and known fabulous pro grade instruments from makers such as Olds Besson Conn Martin Bach Selmer Shilke Yamaha Bouescher can be purchased relatively inexpensively and would be a better prospect for a valve replate.
They are well known instruments and a valve replating would be a good investment on such instruments.
On this instrument I would think carefully before going down that road.
I have refurbished Conns, Selmers, and Bessons, sometimes at very high expense and it always made sense to me, but I doubt I would replate this instrument it just doesnt make financial sense to me, in my mind it is a simple cost benefit equasion.
Will the resale value after the work is completed equal the cost of the work on the instrument.
I dont see the value in the instrument to justify the work.
Do not regret this purchase at all.
It is a magnificent instrument and beyond anything I have or could aspire to.
It will I am sure move you to a place in your playing and development where you and your audiences have huge satisfaction and enjoyment.
We all look back on our decisions and are tempted to question them but I firmly believe that we make the best decisions we can when we make them, this is therefore the best decision you could have made.
This is a great instrument and it can help you achieve greatness.
I concur with Richard III
I would add that brass practice in general and trumpet/cornet practice in particular is closely bound to the manner in which we form our tones.
To give an example, a piano if we press the middle c key and keep pressing it until we tire the piano will sound the tone consistently and will not tire of sounding that c.
However the tone of a brass instrument is entirely and totally a result of the sophistication with which we generate the tone.
As we brass players tire and the tone begins to fail due to developing poor technique or fatigue or other similar reasons, we end up playing and practicing poorer and poorer tones.
Practice replicates and reinforces the thing we practice.
If we keep producing wonderful tones as we practice we are fixing and reinforcing beautiful tones into our muscle memory.
If we continually practice blatty and rough sounding tones due to fatigue or poor technique we end up reinforcing poor tones into our muscle memory.
The much repeated advice of rest as much as you practice is built upon this wise knowledge. Rest is critically important to good development.
Kinda yes/no probably no.
The LA valves were quite different to the Fullerton valves there was a radical change to the guides that forced changes to the valves.
Most of the Ambassadors available are Fullertons and therefore unsuitable for an LA Special
Even during the LA period they changed the guides which changed the valves.
The result is you would have to buy an LA Ambassador to have any hope of valve compatibility between an Ambassador and an LA Special and both would have to have the exact same late LA valve design.
There are also differences between the early LA valve stem and late LA valve stem that would require the valve and the stem and maybe other parts to stay with the valve they came with and they may make the valves incompatible as well.
For example the early valve stem not only is a different length to the later valve stem but also has a different fixing to the valve so you have to use the same stem that comes with the valve and the chance of vertically aligning the valve is therefore slim.
This site shows the issues
https://www.robbstewart.com/olds-early-trumpets
The LA Ambassador uses the square shaped bar as a valve guide, if your Special has the same square shaped bar then it might be physically compatible with an LA Ambassador.
LA Ambassadors are quite rare and carry a premium cost.
Even if they are physically compatible the port positions are likely to be wrong anyway.
To put this in perspective an LA Ambassador may be a bit cheaper than a LA Special but will come with a heap of uncertainty and possibly extra costs on top so I would not even consider replacing an LA Special valve with an LA Ambassadors valve and have the extra risk.
You are probably better buying another LA Special and you will then know the valve will fit and you can use whichever instrument plays best. Additionally if the one you choose develops a problem you can simply swap the third valve over and have a second instrument. It would be as close as possible to a zero cost fix.
It just wont be cost effective to try to get an Ambassador valve to work in my opinion.
And you wont know the condition of the Ambassadors valve before you see it and that may come with issues as well.
You have not said why you need a replacement valve perhaps it might be fixable by a tech at far less cost than trying to source a suitable Ambassadors valve if that were even possible.
This is an open message to the administrator.
Kehaulani is one of the most respected members of this site and it would be a great loss if he never returned.
I have seen some big problems with other sites preventing their members logging in for no apparent or logical reason, that magically fixed themselves after some weeks of frustration by the member affected and the admin of the site.
I believe kehaulanis issues are of this kind, where he does everything correctly many times over but to no avail, and the admin is defeated time after time when trying to resolve the issue for him.
Can I ask the admin to revisit this issue and work with kehaulani on it in the hopes of defeating this software account issue whatever it is.
And could any member who has contact with kehaulani ask him to try again to gain access.
The members miss him, I miss him, and I want to see this issue resolved if at all possible.
We all suffer issues in our lives from time to time and I know kehalani has suffered more than his share of them, but an inability to log in to a site that he wants to log in to and that wants him to log in to it but the software stonewalls him, should not be one of them.
Can it be looked at again.
Thanks in advance
I dont see many similarities with my older instrument and I want to avoid speculation on this, I can however make a few comments now that I can see a lot more detail.
The metal valve guides are robust and suggest early manufacture and high quality.
Various hexagon shaped parts have been seen on artisan models and this also suggests higher quality.
The water keys are slung beneath the tubing in the manner of a trombone and this is fairly typical of a manufacturer that has a history of manufacturing trombones prior to manufacturing trumpets.
Olds for example manufactured trombones before trumpets and adopted the underslung trombone style water key on some of their trumpets, they also adopted brass valve guides very similar to yours, although we should not draw conclusions from these two facts.
Martin adopted trombone style side action water keys on their Committee horn and you cant get better than that.
As to the hexagon shaped parts Bach used hexagon receiver ends as did Olds and several others.
I also believe I see Nickel balusters on top of the brass valve casings, this suggests the valve casings were fabricated in two parts in the manner of Bach Strads, and the Bach strad is about as good as you can get.
Additionally all the ends of all the slides are rounded like a bead, I have seen a lot of beginner intermediate and pro horns and you tend to not see this on either beginner or intermediate horns but you do see this on some pro horns.
It looks like a great deal of money and care was lavished on this instrument during its manufacture.
There are so many elements that singly do not prove quality but when all are taken together they suggest quality.
Adding everything together I have reason to believe this horn could easily be an intermediate or better instrument.
But none of this really proves anything. An instrument can be made well but still play poorly.
There are many factors that could relegate this instrument to beginner or worse quality, the resistance, the intonation, possible valve wear, bent or ill fitting parts due to damage, we cannot yet know where the gremlins are.
The only opinion that will mean anything is that of a competent player following an extended play test.
Regarding the mouthpiece, I believe that the mouthpiece and instrument should be matched to each other so as to deliver the timbre and tone that the player aspires to.
My mouthpiece is unlikely to be of any value for you I have many and can swap them to discover a good match.
You may need to swap mouthpieces out to reach the tones you are looking for.
It is easy to speculate especially about quality when there is no real evidence available one way or the other.
The thing about trumpets is, not all instruments were engraved or stamped with makers marks or details. The better ones usually were but even that means little.
Some instruments that appear to be great when looking at them can turn out to be poor.
It can be a crapshoot.
Even good engravings could turn out to be false and intended simply to mislead purchasers.
You have to know a huge amount about instruments to be confident that you have a good one just by looking at it unless you know its history.
Only one test matters. How does it play.
Have a good player test it and give an opinion or take it to a good tech for an opinion on it.
It just looks like a trumpet and that is all I can say about it from those few images. I dont think anyone can say any more than this.
See what a good player makes of it before having an opinion on it..
It would be wrong of me to suggest that the prospects are anything but very poor,
barliman is quite correct it depends where you are.
I see musicians on the gigging circuit making nothing. I see some making a little. we are talking about local bands and bands on european tours.
I see busking musicians making nothing but a few dollars a week only, I see busking musicians not even covering their travel expenses.
A few months ago I got some work as a session musician for a local band who were cutting a track in the studio for an upcoming album and made almost nothing.
I have done some film work and that was disappointing and not worth my time, but we do this for networking and career opportunities, it aint just for money.
The scuttlebutt is that there is money to be made, but when I challenge the people who claim there is work they usually come up empty handed.
I have appeared on stage several times and never been paid anything for it.
I have sat in with several brass bands and that has always been disappointing.
I think you need to do some research, cultivate connections with bands, do some networking.
Lockdown killed everything and it still has not recovered.
My saddest moment was seeing a major star with an entourage with no gigs and looking lost. How the mighty have fallen during lockdown.
There are no real audiences around most of the time the audiences have dwindled away to almost nothing.
You need to be in an established band to get work whether that be brass, jazz, blues, ska, big band, or orchestra.
Small ensembles do get work for weddings and some promotions but I wouldnt hold out much hope there.
I would point you in the direction of jazz pop funk ska and motown bands. But often they have to travel widely to get work.
Get yourself to jazz/blues clubs and venues and make some contacts there. They often advertise the acts and genres in advance so you can plan which days to turn up. They often also do jam nights so you can sit in and be recognised.
Walk in holding your instrument that will be your calling card.
I am thinking that my comments so far will sound very familiar to you in your home town. Music is everywhere so the problems will be the same everywhere.
I was invited a few times to sit in with a couple of jazz bands based solely upon their seeing me carrying my instrument under my arm, but that is very rare.
Research the cities you will visit on the internet before you go and check out the websites of local music venues and bars, many have closed down, I recently visited a night spot for a jam night and they had closed down without pulling the adverts. Dont make that mistake.
Make some contacts and some arrangements.
We make our own success in this world but this will take a lot of effort. I wish you well with it.
As for travelling, I have travelled across europe and managed to take trumpets and cornets in the under seat storage in the aircraft cabin. Cornets fit in the smallest bags allowed in the cheapest airline cabins. And a good cornet will help you sound great when you get there.
If you are going to put yourself in the position of gigging you might as well sound great and a have a ball doing it.
Apologies for adding yet another post on this topic but if there is one thing I have learned it is that there are more than a dozen ways for valves to show this behavior, and it can take a huge effort to resolve it.
This is perhaps why there are so many different opinions on this.
First of all the manufacturing process is not consistent it never can be but I would expect the manufacturer to have made good valves lapped well to the casings.
The manufacturer is the first stop and they will confirm that either the valves are within tolerances or they need to be worked on, and this would be a warranty fix,
If the manufacturer says the valves are good they should offer suggestions of what to do next.
The next consideration is valves that need to bed in and that will take a few weeks to complete, If you play it rarely then it could take months. It is the number of valve actuations that beds valves in not the time in days or weeks
Next after this is cleanliness and care, if you allow dirt debris lint or other material to get into the instrument then this could cause sticking of the valves. Keep the instrument scrupulously clean.
The casings are not made of the same material as the valves and differential expansion as the instrument warms up can cause the clearance between valve and chamber to close up and the first you know of it is the valves stick if the gap is small around the valve.
Next there is breakfast lunch and dinner. If you do not clean your teeth before playing then you will be blowing your last meal into the instrument and the days pizza or fries will get stuck on the valves and stop them working.
Next we have finger action. Eccentric finger action can cause valves to stick and this happens more frequently as the instrument warms
The final conclusion may be as complex as this:-
The valves are new and tolerances are super tight, the tolerances close up as the instrument warms, debris in the mouth is blown into the instrument, and the fingers dont make a pure straight up and down stroke.
Add to this if the oiling in not as frequent as it could be, then all of these effects add up and the valves stick.
You say that the valves stick then after cleaning and oiling the problem goes away and then returns after some time. You dont say how long that some time is.
This suggests that
1 the oil is settling as you play
2 the valves have some debris on them just before you clean them
3 fresh possibly excessive oil is causing the valve to slide easily and the problem goes away
I always over oil so I recommend that.
I oil before play, then oil during play, then oil after play.
There is no such thing as too much oil there can be however too little oil.
My experience cannot be used as a guide however because my valves all have loose tolerances so your instrument demands a much higher level of care than mine do.
I would not expect a quick fix on this, but I will say it sounds like you have a good instrument, and after this issue is resolved it will be a great instrument.
Dont lose faith in your instrument, it is I believe no more than teething troubles and it will improve.
Take it one step at a time starting with the manufacturer.
I do not disagree with anything you have posted ROWUK however for myself I hear great beauty in ancient instruments.
You mentioned the Cornetto and I have some experience and knowledge of these instruments so I feel I can speak on the topic.
For example a Cornetto played in its traditional setting in a church or a cathedral with an organ accompaniment is a beautiful thing.
There is a seductive sweetness and beauty in the tone of a well played Cornetto that I have never heard in any other instrument.
Of course modern instruments are wonderful and highly developed and sit well together in an ensemble and sound wonderful in a modern setting and playing from a modern score.
But my point was and is that the ephemeral gentle and sweet alluring tone of the ancient instrument appears to have been lost in the shuffle over the last 300 years.
Is the modern instrument better, yes it is, it is in tune with itself it is consistent in tone across its range it is relatively easy to play well in all registers and its wide dynamics are helpful in developing expression.
The old instruments have issues with inconsistency of tone difficulties in controlling pitches and dynamics and sometimes it feels they fight us. But that was not really the point these inconsistencies are part of the charm of the instrument.
For all their faults the music made on these instruments is compelling and addictive. I have played recordings of ancient instruments to various members of the public and without exception they have declared the ancient instruments to have great beauty of tone.
Today for example I played a cornetto recording to a lady of advanced years and she told me that her hairs stood up on end when she heard the instrument and it touched her in her soul.
I also played a recording to a young man of around 17 or 18 and he declared it to be surprisingly beautiful.
Of course that can happen with modern instruments but it happens repeatedly and often with the ancient instruments.
I firmly believe that we have lost something precious by leaving these instruments in their cases and exclusively playing on modern instruments.
You are right ROWUK we have gained a great deal in the development of our modern instruments but we have also lost something.
It is however easily fixable by our simply obtaining examples of these instruments and including them in our practice, and I intend to do this and I hope that perhaps other members might consider doing the same.
Welcome
You are facing some obstacles
My thoughts are with paralysis of your entire left arm then you need a substitute for holding the instrument.
A possibility is some kind of jury rig strapped to you like movie camera rigs as in this on ebay
I think you will need to work on playing with very low mouthpiece pressure.
I usually advise new players to practice making pitches as beautiful as humanly possible, to practice striking pitches confidently and strongly on pitch and practicing smooth unwavering tones.
If you can master these or at least work on them then you have a good chance of sounding at least as good as others in your community band and possibly better than many.
Range of course is always a challenge
My advice here is to practice musical phrases that include pitches at the upper end of your range and at the lower. This should see your range develop and gradually extend.
If you can play confidently and sound good at articulating and sounding pitches then you will win a place in the band and the respect of the other musicians.
Uan Rasey has been mentioned and he overcame disability to reach the very top.
It might seem like an impossible task at first to overcome your disability and reach a high standard but remember this, everything is impossible until you know how to do it.
I love your can do attitude.
No high temps here
This was a difference of opinion between two members who respect each other, and both stand by their opinions
These adjustable rings came into favour on instruments that students would use.
They were generally missing on professional standard horns.
The reason for their existence was that as the student grows into adulthood the smaller child sized hands grow in size and the fingers reach further. A fixed ring can then be awkward for the student.
Students need the ring position to be conveniently adjustable and the adjustable ring allows this.
The adjustment to the ring position can be made easily so that the ring is always a comfortable distance from the valve block for the player no matter how large their hands and how long their fingers.
When they finish growing a fixed ring becomes convenient.
The Lyre holder is a different thing altogether.
Typically I see Lyre holders fitted as standard on cornets and not fitted at all on trumpets. The marching instrument was typically a cornet in Europe.
Trumpet players of course also marched with trumpets and to facilitate fitting a Lyre to a trumpet a Lyre with a clamp was developed. The Lyre then could be fitted onto any convenient tube.
I have always found that the clamp on the adjustable finger ring would loosen at inconvenient times so the fixed ring makes a lot of sense for a serious player.
On the other hand many players dont like or use the ring to adjust intonation.
Looking at images of players like Miles Davis I see that on some images he reversed the position of the ring so that the ring was positioned way beyond reach of his fingers. This got rid of it entirely during that session.
Some players inverted the third slide when the legs on the third slide were the of equal length so that the ring hung beneath the slide. An example of an instrument that allows this is the Olds Ambassador which has legs of equal length and an adjustable ring. This instrument allows three options for getting rid of the ring entirely.
1 is to keep the adjustable ring but reverse it so the ring is extended completely beyond the slide
2 is to remove it and leave it in the case.
3 is to invert the third slide so the ring is under the slide.
Some instruments of course were narrow wrap instruments which were built with ring hanging down.
The narrow wrap Selmer with underslung ring that Sachmo played which I believe was one of the Selmer Paris Grand Prix models was an example of this as is the Conn 58B.
This is what I have seen.
I think we see eye to eye Dale great comment
Thank you
Hi Dr GO, its like if we talk about fruit for example
If we stop eating pomegranates, because other fruit is easier to eat and less messy.
Yes the modern fruit is easier to eat and less messy and less effort, but the unique taste of pomegranate is now lost to modern generations who dont taste the pomegranate.
many modern instruments and the Cornetto in particular have a unique sound that is simply unavailable in any other instrument.
What have we lost, we have lost the sound of the old instruments that we cannot hear at all anywhere else.
Do they sound good or bad, if they sound bad then good riddance to them but if they sound unique and beautiful it would be folly to abandon them.
Are we right to abandon these old instruments and never hear them or play them, that is a personal choice.
But it is like Apples, many varieties that taste wonderful have been abandoned over the last 100 years, and now they are being rediscovered and people find they prefer the older apple varieties that are more difficult to grow and crop less.
If you abandon something unique you lose it.
That is what we have lost, the unique sounds of ancient instruments.
And sound is what we musicians should be defending, all we have is our sound.
We should be defending unique and beautiful sounding instruments and they should sit alongside modern instruments if we choose to place them so.