Best posts made by Trumpetb

Been through this bought the tee shirt.

This is my take on it.

1 a tight slotting instrument is incredibly easy to play in tune compared to a loose slotting instrument as long as you accept that the in tune notes will not really be in tune for the reasons you have explained.

2 a tight slotting instrument is far easier to play in tune and hit the notes centred when tired and in pieces requiring endurance

3 a loose slotting instrument feels slippery as heck and at first almost impossible to centre notes and centre them well

4 it takes a lot of effort to play loose slotting instruments well and centre the notes consistently.

5 mouthpiece choice is critical and a loose slotting instrument demands a good match of mouthpiece, in other words the mouthpiece can add to the loose slotting or make the slotting tighter.

In all a loose slotting instrument is much more of a crapshoot but at the same time is far more rewarding when playing jazz or blues and trying to create emotion in a piece.

For these reasons it is no surprise to me that classical players and legit players prefer tight slotting instruments and jazz players prefer loose slotting instruments.

There are many other considerations at play that complicate the issue, for example many instruments are not in tune with themselves others do not resonate well or resonate erratically through the registers. Others play with high or low resistance.

Personally having played both types I have no preference they each have their advantages.

I would add this if you are a weaker player then a tight slotting instrument is a help, if you are a monster player then a loose slotting instrument can sing in your hands.

As a personal note poorer players or sloppy players who rely on the instrument to centre the notes for them are the ones who have difficulties with loose slotting instruments. strong players who create the pitches correctly in their embouchure have less trouble with loose slotting instruments.

This is entirely my own personal opinion and I expect that many good players will disagree with me on this.

Heres a question for you if you have to play a huge glissando in rhapsody in blue would you prefer a tight slotting instrument or a loose slotting instrument.

Real playing demands compromises we simply need to decide which compromises suit us the best.

Bless this Vessel and all who sail in her

Interesting comments.

Trumpetboards members are friendly and welcoming.

The members in Trumpetboards are both knowledgeable and helpful

Trumpetboards Members talk on topics about trumpets, related instruments, and other important topics beyond brass instruments.

Trumpet Herald members can be unwelcoming and downright unfriendly and they dont like people who disagree with them, but they have a large body of historic knowledge and posts.

I liken the Trumpet Herald to a library where you can find huge amounts of historic information but you have to keep quiet while you are there.

I have seen the bad treatment that people get in TrumpetHerald if they speak their mind and give an opposing opinion on a topic.

I liken Trumpetboards to a college where there is not as much historic information but you can speak freely and can learn a great deal.

A college is far more useful than a library. I am on the internet, the biggest library on the planet, I dont need yet another library.

The danger with Libraries is they can make a nice warm home for unpleasant people to inhabit who then refuse to leave.

Trumpetboards encourages learning and that is exactly how a good forum should be.

I note that the most fundamental question remains yet unanswered

Do we blow or do we suck when we play

The Oxford dictionary defines the sucked trumpet as

"Trumpet-like instrument played by sucking rather than blowing air through the player’s lips to cause them to vibrate."

We are encouraged to blow when starting out to make the fundamental sound into the mouthpiece, but I have issues now with knowing if I should be blowing or sucking.

I have to confess that right now I blow big time, but I am confused if instead I should be trying to suck if I want to improve.

Can any member help me out on this.

Should I suck or should I blow, or does it even matter

Any help and advice from other members who suck and other members who blow, would be greatly appreciated.

There may be cause for concern.

Tenite was a regenerated cellulosic plastic.

It was made by the Eastman chemical company which was a part of Eastman Kodak until Eastman and Kodak separated in 1994.

Tenite cellulosic plastic was a plasticised cellulosic resin similar to celluloid which was the prime material that film stock was made from, and I believe this is the connection to Kodak.

Cellulose plastic used in the film industry was found to deteriorate and then it became a fire risk and a number of old movies burst into flames prompting the industry to find an alternate product.

The alternate product they found was acetate or polyester.

There is no suggestion that Tenite is a fire risk. The original celluloid film stock was in fact nitro cellulose based and the nitro part of the name suggest a link with nitro glycerine which also carries an element of risk.

There is no nitro element or association with Tenite it being a product based upon regenerated cellulose fibres.

Other materials made from regenerated cellulose fibres include Cotton, Flax, Lyocell, Viscose, and Rayon.

None of these products cause any concern or significant risk of fire.

However, The internet reveals this
"Not to be mistaken for mold, the powder from Tenite decay is considered hazardous and proper gear such as nitrile gloves are recommended for handling".

Recommending that nitrile gloves be used for handling Tenite is worrying to me.

I suspect that it may be wise to encapsulate the instrument in a sealant of some kind to limit its decay and decomposition, and limit any possible exposure to the products of that decay.

I am thinking of the application of a clear acrylic laquer and then storage behind glass.

I have used clear acrylic laquer spray on instruments and found it to cover well and totally seal the instrument and the resulting finish was very thin and long lasting.

Having said that I only used it on raw brass and not on any plastic material.

I cannot predict the effect that a spray coating of acrylic laquer would have on Tenite. It could damage the material if it is carrying with it any solvents.

The internet also states that acrylic laquer is solvent based.

I would therefore consider it risky to use spray acrylic laquer on a Tenite instrument without testing it first on a sample.

The question now is this, is the desire to own this plastic instrument worth the risk given that there appears to be clear evidence that when Tenite breaks down and deteriorates as it ages it becomes hazardous.

I hope this is of some value in reaching a decision about what to do with this instrument.

I have done a great deal of experimentation and I do not accept that the position of the valves has any relationship to the tone.

If that were the case then my peashooter with valves closer to the bell should be darker sounding than my balanced model with valves further away from the bell.

Nothing could be further from the truth the peashooter with small and thin bell flare sounds much brighter than the balanced model.

I do not accept that the number of bends in the wrap has any effect on the tone.

If that were the case then when I play open the tone would be much brighter than when playing with all valves down.

I am after all considerably increasing the amount of bend in the tubing when using the valves. 360 degrees played open and fully 900 degrees of bend with all three valves depressed, and no change whatsoever to the tone.

What does affect the tone is all of the following:-
the shape of the bell flare,
the size of the bell,
the thickness of the tube wall,
the material the instrument is made of,
the position of the braces,
the weight of the valve block,
the presence or not of a rim wire,
the mouthpipe shape and design,
the mouthpiece weight,
the mouthpiece size,
the mouthpiece cup shape,
the mouthpiece cup depth,
the size of the oral cavity,
the embouchure,
the tonal concept in the head of the player,

These are the real differences between trumpet and cornet

I would bet my life and all I own on this.

For me it is simple

Playing
Listening
Hearing

Listening and hearing are not the same, listening allows me to hear what I am doing in fine detail and in the hearing I understand what I am failing in and what needs immediate attention.

The playing gets me warmed up and ready to play well the correcting of the errors I hear in my playing gets me ready to play to my highest level.

I want to eradicate the mistakes as soon as possible or I end up practicing errors and if I practice errors without immediately correcting them, then I consolidate bad habits and poor playing.

I want to consolidate good habits not bad habits.

I am also going to make a suggestion and please dont be upset at this, but remove the mouthpiece and play for a while on that alone.

It has been a long time since you played and perhaps the instrument is introducing some kind or resistance to you that makes it hard for you to sound notes.

If you buzz notes and tunes successfully and strongly into the mouthpiece alone and then bring that technique to the instrument perhaps that will assist you in overcoming any problems that the instrument might have.

I sometimes have difficulty sounding notes myself so it is no embarrassment particularly on an instrument that is unfamiliar to you

Agreed J.Jericho

Logic questions of this kind typically rely upon being imprecise in the question, leaving it open to interpretation and you have focused upon the central issue, that of the meaning of fathers and the meaning of yours.

Yours and Your's would have two different meanings depending upon your interpretation of the use of the possessive apostrophe in father's and the lack of the apostrophe in yours.

Yours can mean all that we associate with the collective you, Your's however has a more and slightly different meaning of that which belongs to you.

Carrots five dollars, means carrots collectively are the equivalent of five dollars whatever that means, however carrot's five dollars means the five dollars belonging to carrots.

The use or lack of use of the possessive apostrophe can therefore change fundamentally the meaning and sense of a statement.

The common misuse of the possessive apostrophe raises the question here, how is yours intended to be interpreted, and I think you are right to focus upon that given the uncertainty in its general use, as opening the door to more than one meaning to the question.

To me the use of the possessive apostrophe in father's and not in yours, suggests my sons father belongs to your father (your, meaning me, as the subject of the statement) but then goes on to say, What relative of yours.

Abandoning the possessive apostrophe having just used it in father's is saying that the author as the relative (the author) does not belong to you (me).

It therefore reads wrong, and I think intentionally so, so as to set up the very uncertainty of meaning of yours, that you focus upon.

In effect the author is asking what relation am I to you, when I am not related to you at all which of course is in itself illogical, and that very illogicality in the question turns what might be an easily understood statement or question into a teaser.

I feel your pain Dale and I know they can be quite tricky.

They changed the design of the valves and the guides many times and made it slightly simpler as the decades moved on.

The early valve guides had the pegs in different locations in the valve blocks and that made it difficult, later they made the pegs all in the same location so that was slightly better but the guides could still jam and be problematic to position correctly.

Once you have the knack I find them simple to align and fit.

I prefer the Crysteel valves now to the more regular top sprung valves with internal springs in a cage that are in common use.

@ Trumpetplus

I like your concept and postulation.

I am not going to claim any expertise so my words are just speculation, however this is my thinking.

Sound travels in waves, radio travels in waves, radar also travels in waves so we can perhaps compare the behaviour of all these waves to your concept and see if there is any agreement.

Light is reflected by a reflective surface, radio waves are reflected by the heavyside layer allowing them to travel around the earth, radar waves which for many decades were assumed to only travel in straight lines have been discovered to be reflected in a similar manner to radio waves and incoming targets can be detected over the horizon.

Why then should we assume that sound waves cannot act in a similar manner to these other waves and be reflected by a suitable surface.

Light, radio, radar, and sound, all can be reflected by a suitable dish reflector so we know they all can be reflected.

Furthermore light waves pass along the length of an optical fibre and around the bends in that fibre by bouncing around within the fibre exactly as you have laid out in your drawing. I find this to be compelling evidence that you are correct.

Your concept therefore neatly obeys the behaviours of many other kinds of waves and aligns with other work and knowledge of the behaviour of these many other waves.

We cannot prove this concept without extensive research of course but it looks right and has a simplicity and beauty.

Simplicity and beauty is very important in nature, with the DNA double helix for example, before Watson and Crick the explanations offered of the structure of DNA were all excessively complex and convoluted in their attempt to explain a complex system. Watson and Cricks double helix was both simple and beautiful.

Simple and beautiful in nature is often right.

For all these reasons I choose to believe your concept.

Thank you for sharing it.

@ Dr Go

Do you need a Triangle player????

Our messages crossed.

I am very happy you sorted it out.

Dont worry the trumpet is a quite different instrument in many ways and the mouthpiece might be causing an issue for you.

I would first of all practice sounding notes by thinking of breathing rather than blowing, but this may be difficult at first.

What mouthpiece is it can you read any markings on it.

And by the way if the instrument is a little bit full of dust and other stuff that can cause it to be difficult to play.

A good internal clean may be called for.

Trumpets play easier the cleaner they are generally.

I for one like the raw brass look on your instrument Bruce, and your trumpet tricks series is a great source of information for us, thanks for offering your experience and discoveries.

I totally agree with you deep cleaning valves transforms them, I have been arguing this for years and seemingly nobody has believed me on this.

Former unreliable slow and painful valves that hang up frequently are transformed simply by cleaning them to slick and buttery smooth devices that operate faultlessly exactly as you describe.

This has worked without exception on valves in many different designs and in all materials from brass to monel to nickel to stainless steel and of all ages up to 100 years old and every single valve I have ever maintained and that came to me with hesitant slow sticky and unreliable valves operated perfectly and faultlessly after a deep clean.

Your experience here is fully supported by my experience of over a dozen instruments from 1924 onwards.

Of course I cannot speak for every single valve ever made but I will say this, whenever I hand any of my instruments to brass players for them to try they are genuinely astounded by the valves.

This is my real life experience all valves I have ever used are all exceptional.

I did not mean to hijack your thread Bruce but I wanted to confirm that in my experience you are 100% correct, properly and fully cleaning valves completely transforms an instrument.

I will be adding an ultrasonic cleaner to my christmas list.

Thank you sir.

If my eyes do not deceive me that would be the 22b New York Symphony early model with top sprung valves.

That is a peach and very desirable.

It was a coincidence or rather an observed correspondence or alignment.

Having said that I believe all things are connected in one way or another and these connections are not always obvious but it takes sometimes wisdom or clarity of thinking to understand and reveal the connection.

We all if we are lucky can contribute to the accumulated knowledge and reveal the synergies that surround us.

Thank you for your contribution.

I took you at your word and as an experiment half valved my cornet and the sound I got out of the bell was a realistic representation of a hippo farting in a john.

I suspect your 10,000 hours may have been far more focussed and productive than my feeble attempts.

Rowuk I think you are seeing my comments from the wrong direction as though I am recommending that if the valves give trouble just stretch the springs, and as if I am stating that all old instruments have tired springs that dont work properly.

I am not saying that at all.

I am saying that valves have many reasons that cause them to misbehave.

All these must be examined to identify the cause

If everything has been rigorously checked the valve is free to move it is clean well oiled all parts are present and correctly assembled there are no dents and no other possible cause then the spring may be the problem.

It can take weeks to chase down all avenues and when there is nothing else left then when the spring is the only part not cleaned or in some way fixed, then the finger of suspicion points in that direction.

Replacing the spring with a new correct part may then fix the problem and if no correct original spring is available and you end up fitting a non original incorrect spring because that is all that is available you cannot guarantee that it will work correctly.

You cannot expect a wrong part to work correctly it is always a 50/50 chance that it will.

In one recent case everything was adressed and the only thing left that could be causing the problem was the spring so I tried to get a correct replacement spring and there was no correct replacement anywhere in the world.

I found a euphonium spring a new stock item that might fit and work in a trumpet. It was a 50/50 chance it would work. I ordered the set of euphonium springs fitted them and they worked perfectly.

In another instrument everything was checked tested and cleaned repeatedly for weeks the old spring was the only culprit left. No new spring was available so a wrong stock new spring had to be tried, it was a 50/50 chance just like the euphonium spring mentioned above, but this time it did not work.

As a last ditch effort before either retiring the horn never to be played again, or giving it to a tech and saying this horn cannot be fixed, I took the chance and stretched the springs and it worked like magic. Problem fixed forever never to return.

Stretching springs must always be a last ditch effort when everything else has been tried and nothing else has worked.

In 99.999 percent of cases sticking valves is caused by one of the following
1 dirt
2 lack of oiling
3 wrong oil
4 badly assembled parts
5 broken parts
6 hardened residues
7 foreign matter
8 poor operation
9 incorrect parts in the valve
10 felts and corks that are breaking up
11 bent parts
12 dents.

It takes weeks to check and recheck all of these problem area and all of them must be checked for the root cause and fixed before moving on to the springs as the culprit.

If all these areas are fine then the problem must be elsewhere and that means the spring.

By a process of elimination the spring becomes the prime suspect.

That is why in my case every time I decide the springs must be the problem it it is after eliminating all other possible causes, and lo and behold it turns out that the spring was in fact the problem. I had checked or fixed every other possible cause before deciding the spring was the culprit.

And when the spring can be the only problem it makes no sense to declare that the spring cannot ever be a problem, it has to be the problem because everything else other than the spring has been checked and proven to be ok.

There is always a cause our job is to find the cause and resolve it. We do this by a systematic approach and by a process of elimination.

Techs are great they zero in on the problem by the same process of elimination why should we do anything less.

My advice to members is this, do not stretch springs as a first fix, use it as a last resort when every other possibility has been explored or fixed and never stretch springs if a new spring that is correct to the instrument is available.

But if everything else has been addressed and new correct springs cannot be found anywhere and a tech is unavailable or is not an option then stretching a spring can be tried and has a good chance of working.

I am not surprised that you have lots of old equipment and old valve springs that are not giving problems your equipment is very well maintained.

However it is really old equipment older than 1960 where the problems with tired springs surface. I have owned instruments from 1880 1921 1924 1948 1952 1953 1965 and the weak/tired spring issue hit most of these instruments. Instruments of this age have often been played to death.

Many players do not trust instruments of this advanced age with many citing the reason for distrusting them as being that they all have very poor valves. The likes of Sachmo and Bix or anyone else at the time never said that their instruments had poor valves.

I am wondering if weak springs due to advanced age and heavy use over 80 to 100 years is a hidden problem, because all the instruments I have owned and used up to 140 years old have without exception excellent valves.

I do believe in letting a tech work on instruments when problems hit.

I have spent thousands over the years on tech work and they have always done a fantastic job, but there are limits and sometimes it makes sense to stretch a spring when it gives an instant fix at zero cost.

Why wait 3 weeks and spend 20 or 30 dollars if it can be fixed in 30 seconds for nothing. If it doesnt work the tech is still there as an option.

I just have very old equipment that throws up an unusual problem with springs and has led to a solution that does actually work very well and is a useful addition to the tool box.

@Dr-GO I cant imagine anything better than playing classic New Orleans music in a great band like the Queen City Krewe

That makes me smile inside, good luck sir.

This I have never seen before however I have not seen everything of course

The name appears not to be Ciicel but Cusel and the u is the umlaut u as seen here in the explanation of the umlaut below.

Umlaut (literally "changed sound") is the German name of the sound shift phenomenon also known as i-mutation. In German, this term is also used for the corresponding letters ä, ö, and ü (and the diphthong äu) and the sounds that these letters represent.

This is similar to the umlaut u in the name of the instrument maker Rudy Muck who has an umlaut u in his name.

Rudy Muck should I believe should be pronounced Rudy Mook so this makers name perhaps should be pronounced Coosel

Rudy Muck is a well respected maker familiar to many and is of German extraction and he emigrated as I understand it to England and then to the USA.

The general appearance of the instrument has a look of German or Czechoslovakia instruments of between 1910 and the modern era, this means little quality wise as many of them are good instruments, but some admittedly are not so good.

The engraving style is typical for example, of many ancient instrument makers that ultimately were gathered under one company name in the eastern block.

Hornucopia has nothing under Ciisel or Cusel but that means they simply have not seen one yet, the chance of it being a stencil is high.

Selmer London for example around the 1930s routinely purchased high quality instruments from Europe specifically Germany and Czechoslovakia and had those engraved as Selmer and we would not question the high quality of those instruments today.

On a personal note and as a warning This instrument has similarities to an older European instrument I owned some years ago, the valves were problematic and would bind because each part of the valves were individually manufactured and fitted by hand and some past owner had disassembled all the parts and mixed them up so you had a stem from valve one fitted into valve two etc etc.

These days this would not be a problem but the valves would not run sweet until all the parts were swapped around and the original configuration hit upon. After that the valves were buttery smooth and sweet as a nut.

This would never happen in a modern instrument parts on modern horns can usually be interchanged freely.

I mention this just in case you have valve issues in this instrument. Each little part of each valve may need to be in its original factory fitted position to work well.

The play test is everything and try several mouthpieces they can be very mouthpiece specific, and all the usual applies, chem clean, corks and felts, and a good lubrication.