Obviously, one can not quantify a mythos.
Nor mastery, by the way, there is always something new to learn.
🌸Catalan musician in alpine exile. Trumpet soloist, teacher, chamber musician, language learner, best cook in house, earlybird runner, 合気道
As I said, there is lot of confusion/discussion about this topic.
Some of you didn't understand me right on.
I got my experience, but I'm speaking mostly about data from serious studies and bibliography.
My personal experience with my students and myself is too long a story. I only can tell you short: It works. All the time. 100 %. But you need the right Info, get rid of some older concepts, observe without prejudice and lots, a mean loooots of patience and love for what you're doing or trying to do.
As I said, please check the two "talent" book by Daniel Coyle (as an Intro) and get then the books from Ericsson and others. There's a lot of them. And if you got the time and understand "the language" get the studies from scientific and medical papers.
In the trumpet world, most of the "Chicago school" ideas and specially the Pedagogy of Prof. William Adam is right on the spot.
Check also what Tom Hooten (LAPhil) and Chris Martin are saying. And of course, Hakan.
I am always having this kind of discusion in Germany. Germany is a "talent" focused country. The kids have it or don't. That's unfair.
I explain always that "talent" is a journalist's word, for people who doesn't understand how music (or sports or anything requiring complexer brain neuroplasticity) works. As said before, "Talent" is the sume of too many components and the majority of them are not inherited, but they part of environment. When looking for kids best options, look for what really absorve their attention. That's the best guess.
Did you know that many kids that were told by teachers "you don't have the talent for the trumpet, maybe try another instrument" were probably up stream players?! The teachers were in old times not so good informed as now.
I'm not a chops doctor nor a troubleshouting teacher, but I have a lot succes with both young and adult students who were jus told "to quit" by other teachers. You have to have patience and analyse where the problems, the frustration and the possible ways of improvement are. Every person is a world. That said, in most cases, the problem is mental. A teacher or themself thinking, they can't play. That makes me very sad.
I was part of a study abot focal dystonia in brass players here in Munich (my wife is neurologist). I was in the control group (that's the healthy ones) and they scanned my brain. If you practice music for more than 3 hours a day, from 7 to 10 years long, your brain (connections firing, amount of neurones, fat Myelin placement) has changed so much, it doesn't like like a non musician brain. It's pretty beautiful to look at it. I got it in DVD.
Neuroplasticity is key. Only sad thing about it, it get slower with age. But you can still always improve! It takes just longer!
(sorry for the length)
Surely there is also a talent/aptitude element involved?
No matter how much I trained/practiced could I ever beat Usain Bolt in a race? His natural ability would never be challenged by any training regime.
I think it might be the case with instruments. I know young people that can play better than I can even dream of doing. Playing with ease, things I struggle with. And they can’t have practiced more hours than me because they haven’t been alive long enough.
Another problem I see is that Teachers are generally people that are naturally good at their subject, and find it difficult to teach someone who doesn’t have their natural skill. Experience helps certainly, but it’s still tough. At school I was useless at Maths. Still am. No matter how my teachers used to try to explain things to me, using every method they knew, I could never grasp their meaning. The point of that example is that the good young trumpet players I know, tend to have ‘mathematical brains’. I wonder if that lends itself to natural talent/ability aspect of Trumpet playing?
Sorry, too long to explain here, but "talent" doesn't exist. Aptitude is something relative not general. Someone could play high easier than us, or faster, or cleaner articulation. But usually, no one is born a "better" trumpet player.
I could tell some stories about Wynton's youth (my teacher is Wynton's cousin), but all of you know all allready. Most people still think he was born so a good player.
Focus (passion, motivation), stress (yes...), right environment, right information (right teachers/mentors), grit, self discipline, ambition and realistic goal setting. That's "talent".
10000 h is no equal 10000 h
I recommend (as introduction) to get "The Talent Code" by Daniel Coyle (Tom Hooten recommended it).
It happens my wive is a neurologist, and I am a martial artist and pedagogue. So I can confirm you, Coyle's book is 90% correct (there is some controversy points). He based part of it from Ericsson's work too.
Mastery is about 10000 h (or 8000 or 20000, does it matters? there's is always room to improve) of concentrated DEEP LEARNING in the "sweet spot", that is where your brain changes/learn at best.
And, you guess it... repeat, repeat and repeat (correctly that is)
Well, here we go in circles. Isn't a Yamaha 11C4, Yamaha's take on the Schilke 11?
I think it is, yes. And not coincidentally, an 11C4 was included with my Yamaha beginner's horn in the 80s, so that's what I played all the way up to age 23. It's actually marked "11C4/7C".
I noted they now include their 11B4 with (at least some of) their student line. I suppose that should work well for youngsters, except if the student has thick enough lips to find the B cup too shallow. Both pretty middle-of-the-road pieces, on the smaller side. They ship a 16C4 with their pro line trumpets - IMO, they might as well not include one...
Yep. My Students are playing the YAM 11B4. It is not too shallow. After that some get a Bach 3C...
When in Germany I had a colleague (trombone player, but smarter than most) who had taken part in a study about lung capacity among brass players. The finding was that brass players don't really have bigger lungs, but can easily control the exhalation.
I was once at a very young age for a revision in a hospital and they measured my lung capacity. Pretty small. After a moment they came again and said "your mother says you're a trumpet student in the conservatory?" "Yes". They measured it again. No change. Quite embarrassing, I supose.