Jaw Position and the Upper Register

Dr GO

@Dr-Mark said in Jaw Position and the Upper Register:

Video yourself doing the same thing on the trumpet that Jon is doing but use your embouchure and we'll put them side by side and compare and contrast.

Good Luck!

Mark. Why are you getting so upset about two different techniques. Jon even says that one embouchure does not necessarily apply to all:

Look at Jon's embouchure in a freeze frame from his video:
There is a beak in his face laterally (in his case dimples) That is because his insertion is going into the direction of the jaw ramus. That IS the horizontal or buzzing smile.

For me, there is no discontinuation of the continue of my face in the lateral projection (blue circle). The cheek is puffed up (red arrow) as these are the muscles I am using.

Dr GO

@Dr-Mark said in Jaw Position and the Upper Register:

@Dr-GO said in Jaw Position and the Upper Register:

Jon Ruff's instructional video about jaw placement and upper register DOES NOT APPLY to the vertical smile technique.

@Dr. Mark says: "Let's cut through the crap and quit wasting time."

Then fine Dr. Mark... As it appears by your definition, then it is you that is posting the crap? It is you posting the evidence that is proving my point. If you want to call this crap than so be it, but I feel your input is more important that this and I do not see you personally as posting crap.

You are playing the traditional lateral smile, and yes it is hard to change that. But for you to say you cannot get the results of the vertical smile after one try, or perhaps 15 minutes and saying it does not work is a bit premature. It took me weeks to perfect this embouchure so I could retrain the zygomitic muscles to optimally contract. Dr. Mark, muscle does not adapt in one session. On average it takes 6 weeks of constant "muscle building" to get good control of muscle groups.

THAT IS BASIC MUSCLE PHYSIOLOGY 101. And contrary to your opinion, I do not believe this discussion is a waist of time but is providing a great learning opportunity to those reading this. There are other ways of playing an embouchure, and Jon Ruff is simply educating people, in a nice video, a traditional way.

I am trying to educate people watching this thread with a PhD and MD at the end of my name, as there is a more efficient way of using an embouchure (note I did not say better, I said more efficient). Tine found this out from years of playing. Again, listen to her video you posted. She says "I can't buzz" and then Phwoooos. She has discovered on her own how to be more efficient and is using the same muscle groups as I am using. She cannot teach it because she may have not taught 10 years of muscle physiology at a medical school as I have done. I can put what she and I do into a physiological an anatomical context and I do not see this as crap, but as a learning opportunity.

So Dr. Mark, if you don't want to commit to actually learning how to do a vertical smile, I respect that, but please let's have some respect for the educational process that I do believe this thread is delivering... Yours through traditional glasses, and mine though thinking outside of the box..... OK?

@Dr-GO said in Jaw Position and the Upper Register:

Mark. Why are you getting so upset about two different techniques.

I'm not. I'm just disappointed that someone of your trumpet standing would decide to side track people that may want to learn how to play in the upper regiter. Still waiting for the video. As for me, I'll stick with what works and that's not a vertical smile embouchure whatever that is.
Kehaulani was right. Time to put this to rest.

Dr GO

@Dr-Mark said in Jaw Position and the Upper Register:

@Dr-GO said in Jaw Position and the Upper Register:

Mark. Why are you getting so upset about two different techniques.

I'm not. I'm just disappointed that someone of your trumpet standing would decide to side track people that may want to learn how to play in the upper regiter. Still waiting for the video. As for me, I'll stick with what works and that's not a vertical smile embouchure whatever that is.
Kehaulani was right. Time to put this to rest.

I posted the PICTURES comparing the two of our faces. I have posted the video before and will post it again with me using this technique:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HaK1sYi5_cfSw3C1N7Hv-Y9oA3PliAaR/view?fbclid=IwAR0ZCpLI_32R1CEBD7OfRHGJXdOkTj-MfoG6pd1to15Fy0zjW460ehCJ27Q

My point is that my discussion shows there is another track that can be taken as how you can play the upper register without working the jaw so hard. That is not a side track, but rather allowing for the reader of this thread to have a direct comparison to try to understand why the jaw becomes so important in the M or lateral smile or Jon Ruff method. OK

ROWUK

I think that the cat and mouse have shown both sides. I believe that there are many paths to Rome. I have stopped using the word "buzz" to stay out of discussions just like this - surely splitting hairs, but simply describing "ignition" to get the standing wave in the horn going. Without it, we are just blowing air through a tube. It is not possible to play a tone without the lips being ignited. They open and close like a switch in harmony with a multiple of the resonant frequency of the horn. The more supple the lip and embouchure, the easier that it is to play.

Now, we all know that embouchure changes (jaw position belongs to that) are a dangerous thing for most as there is no applicable reference for success. In my small world, embouchure changes are more luck than skill. That is why I prefer evolution to revolution. I do not ask (or care) the player if they phoo, BRRR or ZZZZ. They play long tones with NO ARTICULATION. The lips must ignite on a whisp of air. I try and stabilize the geometry regardless how it lies. Then the player gets a steady diet of long tones and lip slurs to build and strengthen. Once the art of creating sound is stable, we add microscopic amounts of articulation to chop the tone into intelligible pieces. This is like learning to talk and in my international experience is VERY tied to the players mother tongue.

Now, moving the jaw could very much change the playing field from downstream to upstream with dramatic changes to the geometry of playing. I know many upstream players with great high chops, but also know enough downstream players that also are not slouches (do we change embouchures for any other reason?). I have not investigated this deeply. Those students that come to me for lessons get the evolution routine regardless of what they bring to the table. Some fly with it, others just get more stable.

Now, one word of warning. I learned first hand at TrumpetMaster that pedantic, repetitive posting never results in anyone taking ones side. Generally the target audience just goes away shaking their heads. Sometimes passion is too close to politics or religion (with a small R).

@ROWUK said in Jaw Position and the Upper Register:

Now, one word of warning. I learned first hand at TrumpetMaster that pedantic, repetitive posting never results in anyone taking ones side. Generally the target audience just goes away shaking their heads. Sometimes passion is too close to politics or religion (with a small R).

Lesson learned. Showing off book learning is no way to help people. Thank you.