Greasy Valve Stem Felts

[EZ_Toner]

I’m having a terrible time with the felts on my valve stems becoming saturated with valve oil. Does anyone else have this issue? Or have you encountered it before? It’s not just moisture, it’s valve oil. So much so that, if I forget my valve oil, I can just wring out the oil from the felts. It happens on multiple instruments, so I’m pretty sure it’s me.

I’ve just been swapping out the valve stem felts for new felts as they become saturated with oil; the valves tend to hang on the felt once the felt is too saturated. I tried switching to a cork plus felt setup, but greasy felts continue. I’m thinking synthetic felts are the next way to go. Any suggestions about this?

I’m pretty sure I’m not over oiling the valves. Also, any extra oil should come out the holes in the bottom valve caps and go on my shirt. I know how that works. Maybe.

I asked my instructor about it, but he looked at me like I was nuts. Never heard of it. Have any of you heard of it or had similar issues?

Thanks.

[ConsultLeo55]

@EZ_Toner This is just a wild thought, but when applying oil to your valves are you removing each valve from the valve casing to apply the oil? Or, instead, are you oiling the piston between the felt and where your fingers press each valve?

[EZ_Toner]

@ConsultLeo55 Thanks for the reply. I’m removing the valve from the casing and oiling the part of the valve where the port holes are. I’m definitely below the felts, not above. Given that I already have greasy felts, I make sure to not get any valve oil anywhere near the felts. In addition, I’m not oiling through the holes in the bottom valve caps, through the lead pipe, or anywhere else. I’m just removing the valve from the casing and applying a few drops of valve oil to the part of valve with the port holes. That’s all.

[ConsultLeo55]

@EZ_Toner That’s what I hoped you would say! Perhaps you will get other thoughts and ideas from this forum. I hope so, but if not, perhaps talk to a brass instrument repair technician near you or call one if you happen to be remote from a repair shop. I understand how annoying oily or greasy felts could be especially if you play on a regular basis. Good luck in finding a solution.

[stumac]

Please tell us more, what is the make and age of your trumpet and are the valves top or bottom sprung? I have some thoughts on this.

Regards, Stuart.

[EZ_Toner]

@stumac I only have cornets* and I have greasy felts with bottom and top sprung instruments.

My first instrument was a 1938 Cavalier 90A, which is bottom sprung. I started having greasy felts that I just swapped out for new ones as needed. Then, going in a much different direction, I got a 1969/1970 Getzen Capri 580S, which is top sprung.

I find the 90A’s felts don’t get greasy anymore, but only because I’m almost entirely playing on the Getzen. I have a couple of other cornets, which I only play occasionally, that don’t tend to get greasy felts (or at least they don’t get greasy fast.) There’s the solution: no playing = no greasy felts. But that doesn’t sound like any fun.

I’m mostly playing the Getzen Capri 580S. You can tell because its felts are greasy.

*Hopefully that’s okay on this site.

[stumac]

My first thought is that you are putting too much oil on the valves.
My method is to withdraw each valve half way and apply ONE drop to each when taking the instrument out of its case wether is needs it or not. On a long gig I will oil at a break around every hour,

If one assumes a gap of 5/10,000 of an inch between valve and casing the volume to fill is around 1/100 milliliter,, one drop is approximately 1/30 ml so is ample.

Another thought, when in the case are the instruments sitting vertical or horizontal, ih horizontal oil might be migrating along the spring box to the felts.

Regards, Stuart.

[J. Jericho]

I oil the valves on my instruments liberally, and no oil saturates the felts nor even accumulates in the bottom caps.

Is this the way you tend to play?

[Dale Proctor]

Do you store the horns at any angle that would cause the valve oil to run toward the stems?

[Dr GO]

@Dale-Proctor said in Greasy Valve Stem Felts:

Do you store the horns at any angle that would cause the valve oil to run toward the stems?

This is my thought too. Are you storing your horn in a case with the valves down?

[EZ_Toner]

@stumac Okay, I’m back. Your question about cornet storage was illuminating. I store my cornet on a standard K&M stand with the bell down. However, when I look at the wear pattern/oil saturation, it’s valve 1 that needs its felts changed out most frequently; always valve 1, sometimes valve 2, rarely valve 3.

I think liquids flow downhill at my house, so barring some sort of siphoning effect or capillary/wicking action, my felts are most likely getting greasy while I’m playing and not while the cornet is in storage. (I’m not playing it upside down, but stop giving me bad ideas. Sometimes I get bored and curious. I might give it a try.)

On Thursday I did a full clean and swapped in new clean felts. Inspection showed that valve 1&2 felts and corks were soaked, but not valve 3. I had already been doing something similar to your suggested oiling schedule, but with 2 drops of oil instead of 1 drop.

I sometimes have odd issues. Maybe I’m just a greasy felt person. Any other thoughts?

Thanks.

[stumac]

The only other things I can think of are if the felts are the same diameter as the piston or the center hole is too big they may be contacting the wall of the cylinder and picking up the oil. I have never experienced oily felts on any horn. Regards, Stuart

[Trumpetb]

I have faced this many times.

Felts can be washed with no ill effects.

Felt is after all saturated with water as part of the manufacturing process so how can water damage it.

One of the processes for making felt is even named wet felting. I see no issues with getting felt wet. Other processes in felt making use lots of steam.

There are many scare stories about wetting felt but I have washed felts many times and it appears now to be simply scare tactics.

Some people even claim that washing a car damages the paint.

My method of dealing with oily felts is this.

Remove the felt, press the felt between two pieces of absorbent material to remove most of the oil.

Then saturate the felt with soft soap or washing up liquid and massage it well in. This removes the oil.

Now saturate the felt in plenty of water to remove the soft soap.

Then when all the soft soap is removed by the water and the felt is clean, gently press the felt between layers of absorbent material like kitchen towel to dry it. You may have to do this several times to remove all the water.

Then refit the felt and it can air dry while in place, or leave it to air dry on a bench if it is fitted internally.

I have done this many times and it has no ill effects on the felt.

Badly compressed felt often regains its thickness by this means.

The felt may change thickness after this, so you may have to revisit the alignment although I have never had to myself.

Like all things in instruments this procedure must be carried out with care.

[robertwerntz]

I have this problem with some horns - have always thought the valve movements upward against the casings pushes oil upward and that some horns dont seal the top off very well

Happens mostly on my less expensive flueglehorn but I love it too much to toss it for that reason LOL

[robertwerntz]

@EZ_Toner a bigger concern would be if liquids flow uphill at your house

[J. Jericho]

Could this be related to bottom-sprung valves?

[Trumpetb]

Trying to get the root cause of this problem will be almost impossible given that
1 different valves have different clearances in the valve block
2 the valves wear through their life and the clearance changes
3 the valve surfaces lose their surface pits which normally hold oil in a stable film as they wear and become polished
4 different players use different oils with different viscosities
5 different players use varying types of oils with different additives
6 different players use varying amounts of oil some very low and some very large
7 different platers use different pressures and volumes of air as they play
8 different instruments have different resistances
8 the position of the nodes and antinodes changes as different pitches are played and this affects the pressure at the valve and this can lead to increased oil migration up or down the valve
10 changes in the pressure exerted by the player as the dynamics change during play changes the way the oil on the valves migrates during play
11 the temperature and air pressure change each day and this changes the behavior of the oil
12 the amount of condensation in the instrument varies according to the temperature of the instrument
13 the ability and efficiency of the player dramatically changes the internal pressures and volume of air

So many variables affect how the oil sits in the instrument and how it behaves that each variable would have to be tested independently for a meaningful result to be obtained.

They all compound together and we would have to test all combinations of variables.

To be very simplistic, the number of tests that would have to conducted to test all combinations and reach a conclusion could be as many as 12x11x10x9x8x7x6x5x4x3.

That adds up to 239,500,800 tests.

On the other hand we could simply chuck another felt in for a dollar, save a crapload of time, make some great music instead, and stop worrying about it.

[robertwerntz]

@Trumpetb Ha!

[barliman2001]

Do you use proper valve oil, and not a creeping oil like WD-40?

[Trumpetb]

I am sorry but I have to speak up

I know that some players use WD40 as a lubricant but WD 40 is not a lubricant. In fact it is a complex mix of chemicals some of which are dangerous to health

The contents of WD40 read like a recipe from a chemists lab

These are a list of the published ingredients of WD40 and I hope that players will abandon it as a lubricant

Hydrotreated heavy naphtha: 50–60% of WD-40
Petroleum base oils: Less than 25% of WD-40
Hydrodesulfurized heavy naphtha: Less than 10% of WD-40, and contains xylene, 1,2,4-trimethyl benzene, and 1,3,5-trimethyl benzene
Mineral oil Similar to baby oil and Vaseline.
Alkanes
Decane, which helps WD-40 remain a liquid at cold temperatures
Nonane, which is water repellent
Tridecane and undecane, which are also found in stink bug scent glands
Tetradecane, another alkane
Carbon dioxide
Propels the WD-40 out of the can
Other ingredients in WD-40 may include:
Dimethyl naphthalene, a solvent
Cyclohexane, which gives WD-40 a high melting point
Solvent naphtha, petroleum, light aliphatic
Calcium sulfonate
Propane

Dimethyl napthalene is known to be dangerous

WD40 contains solvents whose primary role is to remove oils.

The WD in WD40 is there because WD40 was developed as a water remover. It displaces water.

That is why when it was first introduced it was used to displace moisture from electrical parts such as automotive ignition cables and distributors.

It does contain some 25% petroleum distillates but the rest are questionable and some are dangerous.

I recommend that anyone using it abandons it immediately.

There are wonderful alternate lubricants that are available.

Even raw paraffin is more healthy than this

This is what the industry says about WD40:-

WD-40 can be harmful to health if used incorrectly or for long periods of time. It can irritate the eyes, skin, and respiratory system.
Inhalation
Can cause dizziness, headaches, nausea, and upper respiratory irritation
High concentrations can cause central nervous system effects
Prolonged exposure to fumes can cause respiratory issues
Skin contact
Can cause drying of skin and/or irritation
Prolonged and/or repeated contact may produce mild irritation and defatting with possible dermatitis
Eye contact
May cause irritation, tearing, and redness

Also:-

DANGER! Extremely Flammable Aerosol. Contains gas under pressure; may explode if heated. May be fatal if swallowed and enters airways.

In short the recommendation is to keep it away from eyes keep it away from skin do not swallow it do not breathe the fumes.

It is a dangerous product

I make no excuses for calling out this dangerous product.