Help me identify this Trumpet: Ciicel Consul

[Leonardo Santos]

Hello everyone, greetings from Brazil, I hope you are well, I'm making my first post here on the forum, I'm sorry if I made any mistakes, my English is not the best, I hope you can understand.

The opportunity to acquire a trumpet appeared, but I am not getting information about it, could you help me, I will attach photos and video. Thanks

Video 1

Video 2

[Leonardo Santos]

I think I made a mistake, I believe it says circe consul. Is it an Amati Consul? If so, is it a good instrument?

[J. Jericho]

Welcome to TrumpetBoards!

Although I'm not familiar with this design/manufacturer, it appears to be thoughtfully designed, and the quality of construction appears to be first-rate. How does it play?

Don't be concerned about your English; it's just fine.

[Leonardo Santos]

Many thanks Jericho. I left the link to two videos below the photos, one of the videos is the seller playing, he told me that he only knows how to play a few notes, I will play this trumpet on Sunday now and I will know. I also thought his construction was very beautiful.

[barliman2001]

Welcome to TB, Leonardo! The trumpet on the pics has some rather intriguing features - a pinky hook reminding me of early Selmers, but of some Markneukirchen instruments as well, and the octagonal valve caps bring to mind some Buescher instruments as well as the Art Déco instruments of Arigra and the like.
It certainly is neither of these.
You might look up the brand name in www.horn-u-copia.net.
But it is my opinion (fwiw) that it is some sort of stencil instrument and possibly somewhere in the intermediate class - if you are lucky.

[Trumpetb]

This I have never seen before however I have not seen everything of course

The name appears not to be Ciicel but Cusel and the u is the umlaut u as seen here in the explanation of the umlaut below.

Umlaut (literally "changed sound") is the German name of the sound shift phenomenon also known as i-mutation. In German, this term is also used for the corresponding letters ä, ö, and ü (and the diphthong äu) and the sounds that these letters represent.

This is similar to the umlaut u in the name of the instrument maker Rudy Muck who has an umlaut u in his name.

Rudy Muck should I believe should be pronounced Rudy Mook so this makers name perhaps should be pronounced Coosel

Rudy Muck is a well respected maker familiar to many and is of German extraction and he emigrated as I understand it to England and then to the USA.

The general appearance of the instrument has a look of German or Czechoslovakia instruments of between 1910 and the modern era, this means little quality wise as many of them are good instruments, but some admittedly are not so good.

The engraving style is typical for example, of many ancient instrument makers that ultimately were gathered under one company name in the eastern block.

Hornucopia has nothing under Ciisel or Cusel but that means they simply have not seen one yet, the chance of it being a stencil is high.

Selmer London for example around the 1930s routinely purchased high quality instruments from Europe specifically Germany and Czechoslovakia and had those engraved as Selmer and we would not question the high quality of those instruments today.

On a personal note and as a warning This instrument has similarities to an older European instrument I owned some years ago, the valves were problematic and would bind because each part of the valves were individually manufactured and fitted by hand and some past owner had disassembled all the parts and mixed them up so you had a stem from valve one fitted into valve two etc etc.

These days this would not be a problem but the valves would not run sweet until all the parts were swapped around and the original configuration hit upon. After that the valves were buttery smooth and sweet as a nut.

This would never happen in a modern instrument parts on modern horns can usually be interchanged freely.

I mention this just in case you have valve issues in this instrument. Each little part of each valve may need to be in its original factory fitted position to work well.

The play test is everything and try several mouthpieces they can be very mouthpiece specific, and all the usual applies, chem clean, corks and felts, and a good lubrication.

[Leonardo Santos]

@barliman2001 Thank you very much barliman, I find it amazing how this trumpet resembles these horns, I believe it is at least intermediate, I don't think any brand would build such a beautiful trumpet for a student instrument.

Thank you very much for indicating the site, I will look for the name on it.

[Leonardo Santos]

@trumpetb Thank you very much trumpetb, I am also in doubt with the name on the bell, the photo is difficult to see, but when it is in my hands I will confirm its name for you, I am amazed at your knowledge of names and brands, thank you for your help.

I also believe he is stencil. You commented on the valves, the seller sent me some photos of it disassembled after the creation of this post, I will put them below, then tell me if the valves were similar to the model you had, it seems that the valve guides are of metal, I've never seen that before, it looks like a war tank, very robust.

His serial number is 1286.

Once he is in my hands I will give him a complete treatment, cleaning and repairs.

Hopefully he's not so picky about mouthpieces, which mouthpiece did you use on your model?

[Trumpetb]

I dont see many similarities with my older instrument and I want to avoid speculation on this, I can however make a few comments now that I can see a lot more detail.

The metal valve guides are robust and suggest early manufacture and high quality.

Various hexagon shaped parts have been seen on artisan models and this also suggests higher quality.

The water keys are slung beneath the tubing in the manner of a trombone and this is fairly typical of a manufacturer that has a history of manufacturing trombones prior to manufacturing trumpets.

Olds for example manufactured trombones before trumpets and adopted the underslung trombone style water key on some of their trumpets, they also adopted brass valve guides very similar to yours, although we should not draw conclusions from these two facts.

Martin adopted trombone style side action water keys on their Committee horn and you cant get better than that.

As to the hexagon shaped parts Bach used hexagon receiver ends as did Olds and several others.

I also believe I see Nickel balusters on top of the brass valve casings, this suggests the valve casings were fabricated in two parts in the manner of Bach Strads, and the Bach strad is about as good as you can get.

Additionally all the ends of all the slides are rounded like a bead, I have seen a lot of beginner intermediate and pro horns and you tend to not see this on either beginner or intermediate horns but you do see this on some pro horns.

It looks like a great deal of money and care was lavished on this instrument during its manufacture.

There are so many elements that singly do not prove quality but when all are taken together they suggest quality.

Adding everything together I have reason to believe this horn could easily be an intermediate or better instrument.

But none of this really proves anything. An instrument can be made well but still play poorly.

There are many factors that could relegate this instrument to beginner or worse quality, the resistance, the intonation, possible valve wear, bent or ill fitting parts due to damage, we cannot yet know where the gremlins are.

The only opinion that will mean anything is that of a competent player following an extended play test.

Regarding the mouthpiece, I believe that the mouthpiece and instrument should be matched to each other so as to deliver the timbre and tone that the player aspires to.

My mouthpiece is unlikely to be of any value for you I have many and can swap them to discover a good match.

You may need to swap mouthpieces out to reach the tones you are looking for.

[J. Jericho]

@leonardo-santos Do you have access to a competent brass repair/reconditioning shop? The valves look like they will need proper replating, along with perhaps honing the bores, followed by lapping the newly plated valves for smooth operation.

[Trumpetb]

Apologies for jumping in about the possible replating of the valves on this.

Replating could cost between 350 and 500 dollars depending on the shop or tech.

It is a difficult decision and I would want to be convinced that the instrument would be worth beyond this figure before embarking upon it.

Many well respected and known fabulous pro grade instruments from makers such as Olds Besson Conn Martin Bach Selmer Shilke Yamaha Bouescher can be purchased relatively inexpensively and would be a better prospect for a valve replate.

They are well known instruments and a valve replating would be a good investment on such instruments.

On this instrument I would think carefully before going down that road.

I have refurbished Conns, Selmers, and Bessons, sometimes at very high expense and it always made sense to me, but I doubt I would replate this instrument it just doesnt make financial sense to me, in my mind it is a simple cost benefit equasion.

Will the resale value after the work is completed equal the cost of the work on the instrument.

I dont see the value in the instrument to justify the work.

[Leonardo Santos]

@trumpetb Thanks for all the help and clarification. Incredible how you spoke of each part of the instrument separately and citing other models, great knowledge, I want to be like that one day.

[Leonardo Santos]

@j-jericho Great topic raised, I have my concerns regarding the sealing of the instrument, after washing and lubricating and replacing all the defective materials, I will perform the sealing test, if it does not seal reasonably well, I will plating the valves and remove the difference in the body, I was a luthier in the distant past, so I can do the job.

[Leonardo Santos]

@trumpetb Here in Brazil, I don't know of a workshop that does this type of repair on valves, but in the US, there is no shortage of videos on YouTube talking about this subject.

As I've been a luthier, I can perform the service for a price that will be worth it. But first I will perform the compression and leak test.

Here in Brazil, a trumpet that you mentioned costs around 1000 USD, this type of instrument is rare here, there are people who import from Ebay to resell here in Brazil, but lately our import taxes are very expensive and it is not worth it .

[Leonardo Santos]

@Trumpetb @J-Jericho The trumpet is already with me, it is certainly the most robust trumpet I've ever taken, everything is meticulously well done, even the screw of the springs of the water outlet valves is carved, all the pistons have the serial number, his bath it is naturally worn, it is totally original.

His name is not Ciicel and neither Cusel nor Cysel as we were thinking, after polishing only the logo part, the name is Circe, the round of the letter r looks like a dot, but that's just the type of writing.

On the end of it, where the mouthpiece is placed, it says "Made in CZECH SLOVAKIA", I believe that the seller did not see this writing.

I played it with the worst mouthpiece I have and it sounds amazing, but it needs all overhauls, I'll work on it this August and when I'm done I'll post pictures of it after the overhaul.

Here are some more photos:

[SSmith1226]

This is very similar to the AMATI KRASLICE CONSUL TRUMPET. Photos of this model are below. These were taken from an eBay listing that has since expired. The link to the listing, should anyone be interested, is below the photos.
I am not qualified to speak about this manufacturer.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/231609029859?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=mxzaANzpRwa&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=qwHhZLk2SWq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=EMAIL

[barliman2001]

Amati - conglomerate name for a series of small workshops working as a Soviet style company in Socialist Czechoslovakia. Operating under this name from about 1955 onwards, simply continuing to produce whatever instruments the previous companies (like Bohland & Fuchs) had been making since before the War. In the period between the end of WWII and 1955 (or so), some of these small companies simply resumed whatever production they could with the materials and workers available. Usually, these instruments are built like tanks (because you can't produce delicate instruments if your precision tools have been looted by the Red Army - sorry, they called it War Reparations). And development of new things being generally frowned upon in the Eastern Bloc (except arms!), when amalgamated into Amati, they just continued with what they had been doing, without proper quality control or much interest in same, things going from bad to worse. Thus, if you find an instrument that was later marketed as Amati, it is very likely better instrument if it does not bear the Amati brand.

[SSmith1226]

The logo “Circe” on the trumpet in question is very appropriate! Circe, in Greek Mythology was a goddess. Odysseus visits her island of Aeaea on the way back from the Trojan War. Circe changes most of his crew into swine. That has happened many times to me, even when I primarily play my Bach.