Third valve

[Curlydoc]

@Kehaulani Why doesn’t the Committee need an adjustable third slide? Is there something unique in its design that other trumpets don’t have?

[Kehaulani]

It's just made that way.

I don't mean this flippant, but the whys are just things I don't care about. Just whether it does or doesn't.

[Dr GO]

@Kehaulani said in Third valve:

It's just made that way.

the whys... I don't care about. Just whether it does or doesn't.

That works for me.

[adc]

delete.........................................................

[Trumpetb]

Old thread I know but interesting.

I think I can bring something to this discussion.

Firstly no trumpet really needs the adjustable third slide, all musicians have the ability to lip notes into tune.

The cornets and trumpets from 1850 through to 1900 and beyond had no adjustable third slide and players simply learned to lip the notes that were out of tune.

Secondly the mouthpiece horn combination affects how lippable the notes are, I slipped a jazz mouthpiece into an instrument that centred notes well with other mouthpieces and suddenly the notes were sliding all over the place, playing a good pitch became difficult but with effort was achieve-able.

Thirdly the Martin Committee has a reputation for being easy to lip and the notes dont centre on this instrument as strongly as on other instruments.

Moreover an orchestral player does not want an instrument that is hard to centre the notes, his or her task is difficult enough without having to expend extra effort just to play in tune.

I dont think you will find many Martin Committees in orchestras for this reason.

The committee however is perfect for jazz players with its easily bent and lipped notes but it takes a strong and talented player to master the Committee, It does not surprise me in the least that Kehaulani has mastered the Committee.

To answer the question then, trumpets are already made so that the adjustable third slide is unnecessary, if you can handle them in that manner, but beginners, players with weak embouchure, players who play legit, orchestral players, all these players need easily and strongly slotting instruments that have an adjustable third slide in order to play well and to meet their playing needs.

Fully compensating instruments have been made in the past of course as already mentioned, that slot well and dont need an adjustable third slide to do it, but we jazz blues players need the ability to slide the note roll off it fall off it and gliss so we need the committee and instruments like it that make those embellishments easier.

I would suggest that if a player has an aspiration to play jazz then the ability to lip notes and dispense with the adjustable third slide is a necessary skill to learn until it becomes second nature to play on pitch without adjusting the slide and then they can choose when to use it like kehaulani does.

It is about becoming a well rounded more complete player.

[J. Jericho]

@trumpetb "...no trumpet really needs the third slide...". Uhhhhh... you might want to rephrase this.

[Trumpetb]

@ J, Jericho

Good job you were here to stop me looking like an idiot (sadly I can look like an idiot very easily)

Thank you for your correction, I guess my fingers move quicker than my brain sometimes.

I have gratefully edited the post

respect to you sir and many thanks

[Dale Proctor]

Lipping notes is fairly easy, but with a mouthpiece and a trumpet that really center/lock-in the notes, you lose some fullness of tone when lipping notes with that setup. Jazz is jazz, but playing orchestral, brass band, and concert band music, I want a mouthpiece and horn that center well, and do use the 3rd (and sometimes 1st) slide intonation aids.

[Trumpetb]

Agreed Dale I know that lipping into tune can kill the overtones and upper harmonics, whereas using the third slide adjustment ring if it exists helps preserve the upper harmonics

There is a question in my mind that you may be able to answer.

The Civil war period instruments were typically built without third slide adjustment rings and I have heard that the Civil war cornets were difficult to make sing and need a different approach to playing.

Forgive me I have not played on one I am relating a third party opinion here, which is always risky.

Is it true in your opinion that civil war era cornets were more difficult to resonate and make sing compared to modern cornets, and do you think this could be attributed to their design which has fixed third slide to allow for easier lipping of notes into tune.

[Dale Proctor]

@trumpetb

The Bb Civil War era cornets I’ve played over the years tend to be pretty dull sounding, especially with a period mouthpiece. I suppose you could call it mellow, but it’s not the same “mellow” as a good modern cornet. So, yes, it was difficult for me to make mine sing, but I don’t think the 3rd slide design had much to do with it . As far as the fixed length 3rd slide goes, yes, certain notes required lipping, and not just the ones using the 3rd valve. The Henry Lehnert cornet I own, while one of the better cornets I’ve played from that era, still has intonation problems and requires a lot of lipping to play in tune. Especially troublesome is the bottom space F, which is extremely flat. Lipping it into tune results in a really thin sound. There’s no compensating with a slide for that problem, especially since the D and F in the staff are a little sharp.

[Trumpetb]

@Dale-Proctor

That is very interesting and very revealing Dale

I guess that examining the mid 1800's at which time, with the recent invention and application of the perinet valve in 1838, the recent creation of the cornet and the lack of any standardisation in pitch makes for huge uncertainties as to what is and what is not a true authentic cornet sound.

I think that we in the modern age are so used to very well designed and well built instruments that we assume that all earlier instruments must have played as easily and as well as our modern instruments do.

The truth is that there were many challenges and many failures in those early days of instrument design and this made playing on these early instruments quite difficult compared to todays modern instruments.

Perhaps we should not take from this any conclusions about instrument design in those early years of cornet/trumpet, but instead simply marvel at the muscianship and abilities of the players of the day in being able to play those early instruments as well as they did in the face of what are in todays terms monumental challenges.

Life today must be easy compared to life in the mid 1800's, and we truly stand musically today on the shoulders of giants.

Additionally I think we should recognise the musicianship and commitment of those modern players like yourself Dale who rise to the challenge to play successfully on those difficult early instruments and are able to recreate the authentic period music on authentic period instruments.

[Dale Proctor]

@trumpetb

Thank you for the kind comments. Wrestling with that 150 year old cornet in a band for about 25 years gave me a strong appreciation for modern instruments, for sure! I’m the guy right behind the kneeling drummer on the right.

[Dr GO]

@trumpetb said in Third valve:

Thirdly the Martin Committee has a reputation for being easy to lip and the notes dont centre on this instrument as strongly as on other instruments.

For me, playing a third slide note on a Martin Committee has nothing to do with liping a note. It's just there, in tune, rock 🪨 solid.

There is just something magical about the Committee that results in accurate third slide slotting.

[Trumpetb]

@Dr-GO

I have heard that players of a very high standard have a natural ability to play in tune without needing the third slide adjuster.

Hary James was one such, but this is dependent on the quality of the instrument to allow this.

I know Harry spent a lot of time searching for instruments that would easily play in tune across their entire range in his hands.

Trumpet design is such that I find it hard to believe that even the Committe fine as it is, is in tune perfectly throughout its range. It is a laws of physics and laws of acoustics thing.

While all instruments are equal in this regard, some are more equal than others I think.

I believe that your skill allows you to unconsciously play in tune without realising that you are bringing the natively out of tune notes into tune without using the slide adjuster.

I do concede however that the exceptional qualities of the Committee perhaps makes it easier to achieve this unconscious tunefulness than a more strongly slotting instrument might do.

I believe Kehaulani also has this ability to unconsciously and easily play the Committee in tune without resorting to the slide adjuster. Chet and Miles also had this ability I think.

I have seen a similar thing before in other players of great talent who easily play very low quality tuneless instruments and play them magnificently where the likes of myself would struggle with them.

Forgive my assumptions here.

[Kehaulani]

Could be psychological, but I've had three Committees and a bunch of other brands and I play the D/C# not only in tune on the Committee but, I think, in the core of the sound, while on others, I can also play with the third-valve slide in tune in its natural position, but feel I have to bend the notes down and that the core is not on target. (Whew, German-length sentence.)

For that reason, on horns that have very fixed slotting, I might play fast passages by just bending the note down and leaving the slide in its place but, accordingly, extending the slide on more exposed, longer notes.

[Dr GO]

@kehaulani said in Third valve:

Could be psychological, but I've had three Committees and a bunch of other brands and I play the D/C# not only in tune on the Committee but, I think, in the core of the sound, while on others, I can also play with the third-valve slide in tune in its natural position, but feel I have to bend the notes down and that the core is not on target. (Whew, German-length sentence.)

This has been my experience as well. I no longer play with the third valve slide ring on my Committee. It has no purpose due to the natural keen slotting of the third valve fingerings on this horn. All of my others, my Olds, Getzens, Harrelson, I need to extend that third valve slide to keep those C# and D's in tone without working to lip them into tune.

Yes, even for the Harrelson, that slots a bit greasy like my Martin Committee, but just does not have the same third slide accuracy as my Committee (even though I paid 3x as much for the Harrelson than the Committee!)

[Dr GO]

Taking it to another dimension. Fourth valve. My flugelhorns must have 4 valves as engaging the alternative fingerings with the fourth valve depressed, keeps those flugelhorns in a true tone. And while my Kanstul has a first valve tuning trigger, I never use it as it's fourth valve when engaged, covers the task at hand. My Getzen flugel, has no trigger, and I like it that way.