Best posts made by grune

Well, allow me to have a go at this, please. Correct me if incorrect. Simplistic...

The question is: do I need more air for a larger bore? The answer: it depends.

Why: Boyle’s Principle. Pressure and volume have an inverse function. If volume increases, pressure decreases.

Why is this relevant? Our ears. Our ears respond to 2 factors only: pressure and vibration. Our ears transform pressure and vibration into a signal to our brain, and our brain interprets this signal as sound.

So, to produce a sound from a trumpet, we need pressure and vibration. So how to do?

First, some basics.

1. A trumpet is filled with ambient air, and air has mass, and thus the ambient air will have an inertial resistance to change.
2. To produce a sound, that air must be disturbed; i.e perturbed, which results in perturbations.
3. When the perturbations repeat consistently in cycles over a unit of time, they become vibrations, and we call this a frequency.
4. When we increase the pressure of the perturbations within the trumpet, we increase the potential energy of those perturbations; and when that energy is released at the end of the trumpet (the bell), we hear this release of increased pressure as an increase in amplitude (loud).
5. No frequency, no sound. The source and means of frequency is our lips.
6. No pressure, no sound. The source and means of pressure is the air from our lungs applied to the ambient air inside the trumpet.

Q1. So, do WE need air to make a sound?
A1. YES. Why? The air we push out from our lungs vibrates our lips. No air across our lips, no vibration. Try vibrating your lips without blowing air through them.

Q2. Does the trumpet need extra air to make a sound?
A2. NO. Why? The trumpet is already filled with ambient air. It needs a perturbation and a pressure to get that air to vibrate and produce the sound we hear.

Q3. So why do we see almost no air flowing out of the horn, when we use the smoke method? After all, when we ‘blow’ into the mouthpiece, we feel the release of air from the mouthpiece (m/p). Why is the bell output different from the m/p input (ie why the smoke test shows near zero air flow)?

A3. The key is Volume.
(a) First, we need to know exactly what occurs when air is vibrated at a specific frequency.
A wave is created, having nodes and antinodes. Textbooks illustrate this as a 'sine wave'; but this is incorrect, actually. Both the sine and cosine waves should be shown graphically, sort of like this … ∞∞∞ (I am trying to keep the physics to a minimum).
Why is this important? Because this is how the wave forms inside the trumpet, what exits, and what you hear. What we hear is the antinode, because this is the amplitude: the node has zero amplitude, but maximum pressure. The node must form at the bell: thus the bell shape and volume are critical for sound.
(b) If you blow directly into the lead pipe, you will feel air flow out of the bell (but no pitch). But the outflow will very be very much slower than what you inflow, and it will have much less force (pressure). The reason is simple; volume. As volume increases, pressure must decrease. If the outflow point has a much greater area than the inflow point, the flow from input to output will be very much reduced. The analogy is using a garden hose to fill an outdoor pool. Only a very small volume of water can be pumped through a garden hose, but with high pressure the flow velocity can be very high. If a small volume container is filled, the fill rate is rapid. But try to fill a pool, and the fill rate is very slow. The reason is volume. To prevent overflow, the pool may have an exit port. If the exit port is very much larger in area than the hose nozzle, the flow and pressure of water exiting the pool will be very slow and very low.
(c) So with Volume, Pressure, Velocity, Frequency, we can now comprehend our trumpet and our interaction.
(i) We fill the m/p with a volume of air, moving at some velocity, and vibrating at some frequency. The m/p exit hole is about 3mm. The cup width/depth varies greatly, but let’s peg at 16mm x 8mm. If the bowl is semi-spherical, the max volume will be 2.15ml. The air exiting the m/p will have a noticeable pressure and velocity.
(ii) As our air flows through the trumpet, it must flow through an ever increasing volume. Two results: the pressure decreases; and the wave from the m/p elongates and drops in frequency. If the exit diameter at the bell is 70mm, this alone will account for a reduction of over 20x the input pressure. When we consider the volume of the horn to the m/p volume, the scale factor is huge. Thus the combined factors result in a very low volume and low pressure of air exiting the horn: the resulting air flow may be <1% of the input. Thus we perceive almost zero effects for the smoke test.

Q4. So what about sound volume? Why must I blow harder to get more sound volume? Notice: we are talking about “sound volume” (ie Amplitude) exiting the horn, not physical “air volume”.
A4. Pressure. (physics: the node is point of maximum pressure, thus the antinode is the least pressure). Amplitude is the antinode. Thus for a max antinode, we must have a max node (pressure). We create pressure by blowing air into a vessel (m/p) that is less in volume than the feedstock volume (our lungs). The more pressure we create, the more resulting amplitude.

Q5. Ok. But what about the high notes? Why do these require more effort than the lower notes?
A5. 2 reasons.
(i) Our bodies are very limited in capacity. Our lips are extremely limited and weak: in “natural” state, they are simply not engineered to vibrate at high tension to create high frequency vibrations. We must train our lips/embouchure into a very unnatural state. This requires effort to develop and to apply on demand.
(ii) High notes result from high frequencies exiting the horn. A high frequency requires many times more nodes than a low frequency. Nodes result from pressure. Thus as frequency increases, we must apply more air pressure to create the nodes AND we must increase the tension in our embouchure. The combined factors result in an exponential function: ever increasing tension and pressure.

Q6. Bore. How does the bore of the trumpet factor into all this?
A6. Complicated. The bore relates to the diameter of the tubing at valve #2. In theory, a larger diameter tube will have volume greater than a smaller diameter. But this does not mean a trumpet of L bore will have an overall volume greater than one of ML bore: the bell shape and length is a significant factor to overall volume, and thus an L bore horn can be equal in overall volume to an ML bore horn, and vice versa. Added to this, is the internal resistance of each horn, which is in itself a very complicated aspect to analyse: lead pipe taper; thickness of tubes; radius of bends; bell taper and flare; and more are all factors. Added to this is “dual bore”, where the connection to the bell is usually larger than the rated bore: which creates a lower pressure point within the horn, and presumably this results in lesser internal resistance.

So does a larger bore horn require more air? The honest answer is “it depends”.

I hope this long winded post has not bored too many people.

caveman math.

oh my,,, I expected discussion, not aggression. A pity: a reflection upon our times now?

Some excellent points are made, for which I am thankful. I see I should have self-reflected a moment to specify the thread, as one person notes; true, my focus is upon disinfecting; not general cleaning per se. My apologies.

Disinfection is of high concern to me these days. I reside currently in a tropical environment: which, to use a vernacular, is a 2nd world country, with the reduced affluence and sanitation standards when compared to 1st world. In such environment, organisms are everywhere literally and need only a few hours to propagate. I like to keep my horn exposed to open air: enables evaporation, but opens the possibility of air-borne organisms. A proper cleaning pre and post each practice session is impossible. Thus a quick 'treatment' between cleaning rounds is of great benefit.

I have a compromised immune system, and zero immunity to tropical diseases. Even the 'common cold' gives me near-pneumonia symptoms. I have used ethanol for years, as I was then most concerned about single-cell bacteria. But I see now, thanks to this thread, I should include spores in my deliberations and thus alter my methods. The advice and points noted are very helpful.

To summarise the consensus as I see it: ethanol is effective against single cell, and safe; propanol2 is effective against spores and single cell, thus a better choice with caveat; a general cleaning removes 'gunk' with caveat; disinfecting with propanol2 should follow general cleaning.

with thanks,

Very interesting discussion. I have not played all trumpets, nor all mouthpieces, ever produced. For those I have played, I find the mouthpiece is the determining factor for all aspects: particularly for the volume of air I feel I need in my lungs. For horns, inconsistent: some M bore have been difficult to play, and some ML bore have been easier to play. Probing my memory from long ago, I recall the medium bore horns had overall a brighter timbre than the large bore, when the same mouthpiece was used for all.

mine. I like the Longines watches for being thin.

@Dr-GO
Agree, the Olds Ambassador was a very good horn - at the student level. It has the attributes you note. It is medium bore, good for a student, but it is easy to overblow as the student develops power. The tone can be very good for a maturing student using a 3C mp or such, and has focus, but it can never approach the sound of say a Bach Strad. It slots well. The intonation within the staff is very good, but the horn has poorer intonation for lower and higher. The 3rd slide helps with low register: but the the 1st valve has no slide and cannot be modified to have a ring - a real pity. The valves on mine were excellent. The coating was natural lacquer and wore quickly, causing the brass to corrode at the valve casings - a pity. Overall, the Ambassador can serve as a benchmark to compare other horns, and it can develop a student to a rather high level. I regret selling mine so long ago.

I like a wide variety, so difficult to decide favourites. The thread topic is special and moving.

For special, I consider any artist/s who can capture the mood and essence of a time gone by to be special and rather unique. There are many reasons for this: change in humans from a century of GMO foods; and lack of the talent/sensitivity required for that earlier time.

Nathan Lay is an excellent baritone who has captured the essence and mood of 1916, and can evoke tears by singing a simple melody written as a warning to us.

For a light hearted example, listen to his rendition of Pack up Troubles. For a message, listen to Waltzing Matilda, carefully, and tell me honestly if you have no reaction to the words, voice, and music. I have, in a lifetime, heard only 2 other people to accomplish such essence and mood.

Youtube Video

@Niner said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

@grune that impresses me. I'm ready to believe you. I'm no scientist and what you write seems logical to me. However I'm wondering about something related. What about size of bell flare relative to apparent loudness in relation to the same lip produced vibration and volume of air? What if a smaller bore horn had a larger bell flare than a larger bore horn with a smaller bell flare? Would that compensate in fullness or loudness of sound with the same volume of air to produce a like heard result?

Respectfully, I think you are mixing apples and oranges: qualitative with quantitative.

Quantitative. Loud sound results from high pressure, because our ears respond to pressure. If 2 horns have equal air volumes, and have equal air pressure applied, they should have no difference in sound volume. Sound volume is measured in decibels, which are a logarithmic function for an exponential function. This has no relationship to sound quality.

Qualitative. "Fullness of sound" is a subjective quality; ie a descriptor, not a definition. The descriptors I use are mellow and shrill. A horn that produces a shrill tone may seem louder than a horn that produces a mellow tone at equal decibels: this perception depends entirely upon the reaction of the listener.

For a bell, indeed the taper and flare do affect the sound quality, in my experience.
1/ A bell having a small taper from valve block to near end of bell, with a pronounced bell flare at the end. The small taper helps to maintain the air pressure along the length of the bell, and the flare gives an abrupt change in pressure, thereby releasing the wave energy quickly. Such a bell will produce a directional sound, and that sound will tend to be shrill or brighter or whatever descriptor you choose.
2/ A bell having a large taper from valve block to end of bell, with a smaller bell flare at end. The large taper creates a gradual change in pressure, thereby releasing the energy gradually. Such a bell will produce a more open, rounder sound, and that sound will be mellow or darker or whatever descriptor you choose.
3/ The metals used in the horn will also have great affects upon the sound.

Long ago, I sampled a variety of horns of various metals, when Yamaha was breaking into the market. It was a fascinating experience. Yamaha made horns with different alloys and pure metals. Cost them a fortune to do. A pure lead metal horn created a nearly pure sine wave on the oscilloscope: too pure, no harmonics, the sound was terrible. A pure copper horn was so mellow and soft, it could not be heard against even a clarinet! A pure silver horn was very bright, tending to shrill. The solid metal horns were extremely fragile. Then came the alloys; gold, silver, copper, tin, aluminium, nickel, yellow brass, and others I cannot recall. When all was tried, said and done, the horns that were considered the best for sound, projection, and playability were yellow brass!

Lawrence Welk Show, network premiere, 1955.

my, how the USA has changed.

Great replies. Thanks.
[My internet disconnected while starting this post. So now for my own "method".]

My criteria are build quality, tone, ease of play. Build quality is by visual and tactile. The horn must be comfortable in my hands and balanced in my arms. All parts must be solid and fit/operate perfectly.

For tone, I test with a Bach 3C. I find the 3C gives me a good balance for tone. If core, sparkle, etc are present with a 3C, I know what to expect for a 1.5C and a shallower "lead" m/p.

I start by playing low C, D, E. I am determining the intonation of the D. Next is upper E, F, G, A, Bb. If I must use excessive slide to attain intonation, I reject the horn. Then comes a Bb scale from bottom to top, again for intonation.

Then comes Clarke 2, 47, 48, 49. If the valves are not to my liking, I reject.

Then comes my own variation of Schlossberg 28, 34. I am determining how easy or difficult is the horn to play intervals and range. I focus on the harmonics of mid C, to E, to G, to the harmonic Bb, then upper C. This is an acid test. Only very good horns will permit easily the slur to upper C. Then comes lip trills. If the horn resists, I reject.

Lastly, I will play a tune in the key of Bb, as I find a Bb horn sounds best in this key. Usually it's my own version of Impossible Dream, starting on low D. I will start 'pp", and then work to "fffff" to determine whether consistent tonal quality and intonation, and whether the horn will permit me to develop full power.

This permits a quick assessment. If passed, the horn goes on my wish list.

Updated list, by title

Trumpeters featured in Movies and Television
A River Runs Through It Mark Isham
Apollo 13 Tim Morrison
Beauty and the Beast Roy Poper
Bird Conte Candoli
Bob Newhart Show Buddy Childers
Bobby Tim Morrison
Born on the 4th of July Tim Morrison
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid Marvin Stamm
Chicago Hope Cal Price
Children of a Lesser God Roy Poper
Chinatown Uan Rasey
Chips Gary Grant
Cotton Club Lew Soloff
Courage Under Fire Jon Lewis / duet with Dave Washburn
Dances With Wolves Malcolm McNab / film .. Charley Davis / trailers
Dudley Do Right Uan Racey
Duplicity Tim Morrison
Dynasty Uan Rasey
Ed Sullivan Show Chris Griffen
Final Jeopardy Wayne Bergeron
Godfather Jimmy Maxwell
Grand Canyon Fanfare Jerry Hey
Green Hornet Al Hirt
Gypsy Dick Perry
Hill Street Blues Walt Johnson
Ice Castles Doc Severinsen
Jackie Gleason Show Vinnie Tanno
Jetsons Pete Candoli
Johnny Quest Bud Brisbois
Jonathon Livingston Seagull Bill Peterson
Jurrasic Park Burnette Dillon
L. A. Confidential Malcolm McNab
Lush Life Chuck Findley
Many Loves of Dobie Gillis Don Fagerquist
Mary Tyler Moore Buddy Childers
Mike Hammer Jack Sheldon
Nixon Tim Morrison
Pete Kelly's Blue's Teddy Bruckner
Pete Kelly's Blues Dick Cathcart
Return To Me Warren Luening
Room 222 Uan Rasey
Sanford and Son Snooky Young
Saving Private Ryan Thomas Rolfs
Simpson's Gary Grant
Simpson's Gary Grant, Jerry Hey, Charley Davis
Sinatra ( 1992 ) Wayne Bergeron
Snowdogs Rick Baptist
Sweet Smell of Success Conte Candoli
Sweet Smell of Success Conte Candoli
The Adventures of Beans Baxter Maynard Ferguson
The Black Dahlia Mark Isham
The Boss' Wife Allan Vizzutti:
The Carol Burnett Show Warren Luening
The Changeling Gabriel Johnson
The Dating Game Herb Alpert
The Dating Game Bud Brisbois
The Fish That Saved Pittsburgh Doc Severinsen
The Gauntlet Jon Faddis
The Great Waldo Pepper Graham Young
The Magician Tony Terran ( piccolo trpt )
The Newlywed Game Bob Findley
The Odd Couple Bob Findley
The Patriot Tim Morrison
The River Warren Luening
The Sting Buddy Childers
There Was a Crooked Man Bill Peterson
True Grit 1969 Uan Rasey
Uncle Joe Shannon Maynard
Walton's original TV show Graham Young
Walton's Reunion TV show Dave Washburn
West Side Story Uan Racey, Pete Candoli
West Wing Malcolm McNab
Young man with a Horn Harry James

@Dr-GO Thanks for advice. I shall be giving my horn a propanol bath/rinse soon!

sincerest condolences.

I am against all counterfeit.

A very cursory online search should reveal to anyone having a pulse that a genuine Bach sells for very much more. If the buyer persists to buy, then other factors are present.

One consequence I have found with fakes is the stigma. Once other students know and see a student playing a faked brand, the status issue arises, with rather detrimental effects on the youngster's psyche usually. I think this is worse than any stigma associated with a no-name or generic brand.

But I am not against playable instruments selling for low prices, if the brand is not counterfeited. For beginners, the key issue is to have a horn and mouthpiece that are "playable": weight, grip, valves, intonation, medium bore, m/p of right size, etc. "Sound" of the horn is dead last on priorities: a decent, playable horn these days will always have a decent sound at the student level.

I tell parents some simple facts:
/1/ the trumpet is a very difficult instrument, and at least a year is needed to see if the youngster has any aptitude;
/2/ development requires diligence and the reinforcement of weekly lessons at minimum;
/3/ a playable horn will help greatly to ensure the development, the music, the band, the kid's self-esteem are positive;
/4/ the cost of lessons far far exceeds the cost of a decent instrument, to the point the horn cost is immaterial, so why scrimp on the horn cost?
/5/ the "investment" is not into the instrument; it is into the kid's overall development into an outstanding person.

Updated list, by trumpeter

Trumpeters featured in Movies and Television
Green Hornet Al Hirt
The Boss' Wife Allan Vizzutti:
Jonathon Livingston Seagull Bill Peterson
There Was a Crooked Man Bill Peterson
The Newlywed Game Bob Findley
The Odd Couple Bob Findley
Johnny Quest Bud Brisbois
The Dating Game Bud Brisbois
Bob Newhart Show Buddy Childers
Mary Tyler Moore Buddy Childers
The Sting Buddy Childers
Jurrasic Park Burnette Dillon
Chicago Hope Cal Price
Ed Sullivan Show Chris Griffen
Lush Life Chuck Findley
Bird Conte Candoli
Sweet Smell of Success Conte Candoli
Sweet Smell of Success Conte Candoli
Walton's Reunion TV show Dave Washburn
Pete Kelly's Blues Dick Cathcart
Gypsy Dick Perry
Ice Castles Doc Severinsen
The Fish That Saved Pittsburgh Doc Severinsen
Many Loves of Dobie Gillis Don Fagerquist
The Changeling Gabriel Johnson
Chips Gary Grant
Simpson's Gary Grant
Simpson's Gary Grant, Jerry Hey, Charley Davis
The Great Waldo Pepper Graham Young
Walton's original TV show Graham Young
Young man with a Horn Harry James
The Dating Game Herb Alpert
Mike Hammer Jack Sheldon
Grand Canyon Fanfare Jerry Hey
Godfather Jimmy Maxwell
The Gauntlet Jon Faddis
Courage Under Fire Jon Lewis / duet with Dave Washburn
Cotton Club Lew Soloff
L. A. Confidential Malcolm McNab
West Wing Malcolm McNab
Dances With Wolves Malcolm McNab / film .. Charley Davis / trailers
A River Runs Through It Mark Isham
The Black Dahlia Mark Isham
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid Marvin Stamm
Uncle Joe Shannon Maynard Ferguson
The Adventures of Beans Baxter Maynard Ferguson
Jetsons Pete Candoli
Snowdogs Rick Baptist
Beauty and the Beast Roy Poper
Children of a Lesser God Roy Poper
Sanford and Son Snooky Young
Pete Kelly's Blue's Teddy Bruckner
Saving Private Ryan Thomas Rolfs
Apollo 13 Tim Morrison
Bobby Tim Morrison
Born on the 4th of July Tim Morrison
Duplicity Tim Morrison
Nixon Tim Morrison
The Patriot Tim Morrison
The Magician Tony Terran ( piccolo trpt )
Dudley Do Right Uan Racey
West Side Story Uan Racey, Pete Candoli
Chinatown Uan Rasey
True Grit 1969 Uan Rasey
Dynasty Uan Rasey
Room 222 Uan Rasey
Jackie Gleason Show Vinnie Tanno
Hill Street Blues Walt Johnson
Return To Me Warren Luening
The Carol Burnett Show Warren Luening
The River Warren Luening
Final Jeopardy Wayne Bergeron
Sinatra ( 1992 ) Wayne Bergeron

Opinions?

I found a reference to ‘alcohol’ in a thread about covid:
https://trumpetboards.com/topic/617/covid-19-closing-down-music-venues/47

I thought a specific thread might be of interest.

The term ‘alcohol’ is widely confused. In chemistry, alcohol is an organic compound that carries at least one hydroxyl functional group (−OH) bound to a saturated carbon atom. Thus, ‘alcohol’ includes all compounds for which the general formula is CnH2n+1OH. For laymen, ‘alcohol’ is the intoxicant in fermented beverages.

For the discussion, the general public will be presented with two types of ‘alcohol’: Propanol C3H8O, which is the usual base for rubbing alcohol; and Ethanol C2H6O, which is the usual alcohol base in wines and spirits. Both act as solvents and disinfectants, are miscible in water, and are not corrosive to brass. So why the distinction?

Toxicity. Propanol is more toxic than Ethanol. Additionally, rubbing alcohol will have poisonous additives to ‘denature’ the alcohol. Thus, as a disinfectant for instruments, Propanol should be rinsed away with water, preferably distilled and de-mineralised water.

In the USA, the average consumer can avail her/himself to Propanol only, or 40% spirits, due to govt restrictions. Elsewhere, Ethanol is often available. I use 75% Ethanol, as this is proven to be the most effective against germs and spores (higher % evaporates too rapidly, lower % is useless).

I prefer Ethanol, for a few reasons: not toxic; acts instantly against spores; is hygroscopic; very low cost. I pour about 5ml into the mouthpiece and blow it through the horn, daily at the end of each session. I then leave it in the horn to absorb water off the metal and act as a reservoir for disinfectant. Over-night, the alcohol will have evaporated significantly to a low concentration. Commencing each session, I blow the condensed liquid out of the horn via the water keys, then oil the valves. All is very safe to humans.

In 40 years, my horn remains clean, zero odours, internally smooth, and zero rot.