@richard-iii it could be a number of things, from methods used to skill of said tech. The flush used after chemical or ultrasonic cleaning can leave some grit if not properly cleaned out - that could easily have been the problem in this case. My general rule of thumb is if it is older than me, or if it has been really used and rarely cleaned, I don’t turn on the UC. My mentor doesn’t use a UC at all, and cleans with zero issues.
Part of training as a tech is learning to use the appropriate chemicals and methods of cleaning, and if your tech is even average, they will know how to do this safely. It’s NOT a hazard to your horn - whether vintage or new. Generally, we use the chemicals to soften up that calcification so we can flush it out with a method better not used in home use. A home soak others have described won’t really hurt your horn, but they won’t do the same job, either. To give you an idea of the safety of pro level chemicals, I can pull horns out of the tank with no gloves and the worst I might get is dry skin or a cut might sting. Older methods/chemicals can be more caustic than the chemical I use, but since 100+ year old horns have more damage from the acid in your skin than the acid in the tank, I wouldn’t worry.
@oldschooleuph no one said there isn’t a difference between pro and intermediate. I merely stated that I don’t think there is a huge difference in intermediate horns of the past vs the present. Of course there are a few exceptions. Of the current intermediate models out there, my favorite is the Jupiter 1100 series - they are much closer in playability and build quality to the XO series than they are to the 600 student model.
I do, however, think there is a difference in quality of student horns from past to present, and unfortunately build quality is generally much worse to suit a lower price point. I like a vintage student model as a starter horn, but ONLY if it is in good condition. So many have become so worn and damaged after years of use and abuse that they are no longer an acceptable option. My first horn was a VERY used King Cleveland cornet - my mom paid way too much for it, and I still have no idea how I played it successfully for as long as I did! It plays so badly that I kept it to make sure no other kid ever got stuck with it. I’m pretty sure it was a terrible player even when new! It will become a lamp this summer.
Some pro instruments are not suited to beginners at all, and will actually make the learning experience more difficult. Many pro models these days are built with a particular pro player’s needs in mind and are difficult to handle for a student whose needs are “easily playable” and “durable”. I find that when young students come in looking for their first upgrade, something middle-of-the-road usually plays much better and easier for them than any of the pricier signature models, for example a Yamaha 8335 vs. a Yamaha 9335 series. Not only will they not understand the nuances of the more expensive models, but they will likely also have a difficult time playing them. Something to keep in mind when shopping for new horns as you improve as a player.
I really don’t think vintage horns had a higher quality level for intermediate vs. pro - some of those were still no more than fancier plating. The most important thing when looking at vintage is condition. If it’s been played to death or knocked around a lot, it will need some serious work to be brought back into playing condition, and may end up costing as much or more than a new horn when finished. It also may not be able to sell for enough to recoup your investment if you decide to switch to another horn. Also, no matter what the reputation, there is no magic in any horn. A Martin Committee in perfect condition will not make you sound like one of the greats if you are a marginal player, OR if it doesn’t suit you, though you may be able to sell it for what you paid if you don’t like it. A new Yamaha pro model you played and didn’t like will also hold a significant amount of its value. A restored vintage horn will only hold its value if the restoration is done very well, and if the model already commands higher prices. Stuff to think about as you play, practice, and shop.
@trumpetlearner take a look inside the slides. If you see green, that’s calcification that needs to be removed. There is nothing wrong with doing proper maintenance yourself - a regular home clean can extend the time you need between pro cleanings and extend the life of your horn. A professional clean is great in addition, especially if your horn is older or if you tend to have very acidic skin, and also if you play a lot. One never replaces the other - they work together to give you horn a longer life, and a better playing experience for you. Generally, horns will need a pro clean every 1-3yrs depending on your playing and cleaning habits.
I will look around for a local specialist, but it's difficult to know whom to trust with something old/rare - plus most places are closed here at the moment. I've been wondering about that 'professional cleaning'. What is it they do that is so different from a good soaking in soapy warm water, and cleaning out with brushes?
@j-jericho said in King Silver Flair - Buying Advice:
@trumpetlearner There's a seller on eBay who sells kits that include felts, corks, and springs. In the notes, it says that if you're not sure if they'll fit your horn, just contact them.
The difference with a professional cleaning is that we use chemicals after that soap and water bath that help break down calcification that soap and water can’t, followed up by a flushing system to remove all that junk completely. You really don’t want to know what I see flush out of old horns at the end - it’s super nasty! I work on lots of vintage and new horns, and as far as cleaning goes it’s all the same with one exception - don’t clean vintage with ultrasonics. Any possible spots of red rot can open up pinholes in a UC clean, so if I have any suspicions of red rot I do a chemical soak instead.
As far as cork/felt kits go, no need to buy and install yourself if you take it for a clean, as that is generally included in the cost of the cleaning. Also, I don’t know if they are selling stuff that truly fits or not, and you could end up paying as much or more as from the local shops that really need your support right now. If you don’t know reputable places in your area, check with local musicians, college and/or high school band directors. Always good to start a good relationship with your local techs, and they will go above and beyond to help you when you need them!
@trumpetlearner Proper measurement is needed for felts and water key corks, so better to leave that to your local tech. Especially during these times, I recommend a professional clean on any used horn before you play it - you don’t know where it’s been or what has been living in it!
I played a distanced outdoor service, both solo and with a piano for a few hymns. Wrote my own piccolo obligato for Christ the Lord is Risen Today - went very well! My first gig in a year, so it was super fun to play for people again. My boss and I have also started a reading brass quintet - maybe if we’re lucky we’ll actually get to perform at some point! I’m clearly the one in the group that has stayed on a regular practice schedule through the pandemic, but they are all good musicians and I’m sure they will bounce back pretty quickly now that they have some incentive. We all had so much fun at our reading session last week! Maybe we should call ourselves the Vaccinated Brass....
@administrator Most times, yes! I do find that that the intermediate are far better than the student models in most cases, such as Jupiter 1100 series and the Antigua we recently got in stock which are also made in Taiwan. They are definitely far superior to the Conn-Selmer student models that I have gone through in the past few years. I was quite impressed with Carolbrass’s student cornet they released at NAMM 2020.
My Puje has a Carol valve block and plays very well. It’s also rare that I see a problem with a Jupiter valve block, unless the oil on it is too thick. The tolerances on new Jupiter are pretty tight. I actually keep a Jupiter intermediate under my bench for practice when I don’t bring a horn to work - it’s no replacement for my Adams, but it does play very well! Jupiter 1100 series are more of a stripped down pro model than a dressed-up student, and do quite well as a lower priced model.
This one doesn’t play badly, but pistons are so worn it doesn’t play great, either. I suspect it might be a nice player with a valve job. The lease agreement is what makes it special!
I thought you all might enjoy my latest bench post - I do certainly get to work on some fun stuff!
https://www.brassandwinds.com/blogs/news/what-s-on-my-bench-a-1904-conn-connquerer-cornet
Here you go! Boss didn’t buy that Connstellation, but we do have this!
https://www.brassandwinds.com/blogs/news/what-s-on-my-bench-a-1956-martin-committee-deluxe
@shifty Could be - boss buys a lot of stuff! My next bench post is a special one, better than a Connstellation! Should be up tomorrow or Monday 
Condition is also a HUGE factor with these older horns - you may have felt differently about some of them based on piston wear alone! I find that some of the old (1910-1930) cornets that seal better either because of less piston wear or those that have had valve jobs really do play a lot like some modern horns. Personally, I always prefer a modern horn in pretty new condition to gig on, but I make a significant income playing (except during COVID 
) and do not want to have to go on a big safari to replace a horn. Really, though, there are plenty of current designs based on older ones as well. Shep crook designs haven’t changed a ton in the last 70yrs or so.
With military bands still being mostly quarantined and only doing occasional rehearsals or video, it’s hard to get too picky about amount of rehearsal time spent. I thought they all did a great job for the inauguration. Mad props to the trumpeter who set up Garth Brooks, and to the Army Herald Trumpets - ridiculously hard to sound that good and play so in tune after sitting in the cold forever! I don’t miss that one bit!
@kehaulani I agree - classy and very well done. No complaints, especially compared to some renditions.
I did one of these a while ago - cool horn but not a great player. Played best with an extra deep short shank mpc.
https://www.brassandwinds.com/blogs/news/1921-conn-20a-flugelhorn
I use a mix of Berp #1 and Berp#8 on rotors, just a couple of drops on stem and bearing should do it. You can use #8 on slides if they are tight, otherwise I like a lanolin-based slide grease to help fill the space. Check slides occasionally to make sure they are clean, and get a professional clean yearly. You’d hate to know what I find in rotors!
I know I might be preaching to the choir with some of this, but it may be a help to those who don’t know how to care for rotor instruments!
I have not been able to post at all - let’s see if this works....