Lifetime quest finally paying off!
-
This post is deleted! -
I had to delete the last post. I'm going to lock the thread for a day and hopefully everything can calm down, then I will unlock it.
-
@Dr-Mark
Okay when I have more time I will re-read your post and quote. At this point I wanted to bring up a piece of news that trumps even the words you posted.First thing this morning I found a copy of the re-released or 2nd edition of the Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique in my mailbox!!! (:. I can't describe how pleased this made me. Not that I hadn't seen it before. As I had studied it while in college. On the side. Not part of my curriculum which was pretty standard college or conservatory type of study.
And I had once picked up a free PDF file in the late 90s from a generous music librarian from N Texas State.Comments: although the 2nd edition changed the title? The text is still the same. The new edition calls itself,
"Embouchure Trouble and Self Analysis"
However the first edition was titled,
"Stevens- Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique and Embouchure Self-Analysis".
Small matter the title change. And even though I'd used the original title when I'd asked Allan Colin to ship the book? He knew exactly what to send. Because after all,
Allan knew Roy Stevens personally and Roy only wrote this one book. But if anyone has question about what the hell the correct book is? Either title should work. Esp if you order from Allan at Charles Colin such as I did.
Now! To get to the belly of the beast. Disclaimer:
I don't take any issue with those who follow the "tongue arch for range theory". Aka "syllables" such as Aaah, Eeee Iiich" etc. When I once played Maggio? I used the syllables. My range was pretty good. Above average.
Then when I changed over to Stevens? I did not use syllables. This is where I currently am. Going into my fifth month of Stevens system.
But please allow me to quote the old dog Roy Stevens himself. Page 15, second edition, QUOTE!
"I am vehemently opposed to the 'common ground argument' of the (EEE) action of the tongue for the upper register combined with the relative jaw motion because:
A. Raising the tongue to the EE position raises the floor of the oral cavity and thus cuts the oral cavity approximately in half.
Result 1: Vibration is inhibited and muffled in the smaller chamber, leaving a smaller, basic sound to be amplified by the instrument.
Result 2: EEE position of tongue prevents cheek muscles from fighting or resisting air column in the mouth cavity because the air column doesn't reach the cheek muscle. Lip tensions therefore become strained.
Result 3: EEE position of tongue causes air leakage through nasal passage, reducing needed compression at the lips (I would say that 100% of the players that articulate EEE leak air through the nose at the peak of their range"...
End quote of Roy Stevens up to that point...
Okay I'm going to stop here for the time being. In part because Stevens goes on for about another 300+ words. And also because while I agree that on the Stevens method it's simply unnecessary to use syllables or a tongue arch? I don't see the described activity as being quite the "boogie man" who Stevens claims it is.
I've also posted the statement because it does tend to plainly show that at least one method of playing the trumpet has produced some incredibly strong high note trumpet players who indeed have never found it necessary to utilize a mouth cavity restriction. In other words,
We know for a fact that Roy Stevens 4 to 5 octave range (not using pedal tones!) And Roy Roman's similar range didn't require a mouth cavity restriction. Nor did numerous first call union trumpet players out of New York City going back to the 1930s thru 1970s.
Again,
These statements from Stevens do not necessarily invalidate you from using syllables on your method. Although the chances may be that the raised tongue is anathema to Stevens-Costello.
Lastly,
I'm not in complete agreement with some of Stevens reasoning related to the loss of space in the oral cavity due to raising the tongue. I do not necessarily think that moving the tongue upwards reduces the sound or tone quality. I feel this way because air is very "slippery". It can travel through much smaller spaces than water. We can compress air but not water. In fact my main argument against the "faster air" concept is that you may wag your tongue high & low all day long but the air will just sneak around the side of the tongue.
As for what the tongue arch really does?
I believe that by arching the tongue a trumpet player is inadvertently applying a small tongue pressure to one or both lips. That this application of tongue pressure secures a boost of support to one or both lips. Being slightly strengthened? A more stable upper register appears.
However the trumpet player mistakes "cause for effect". Probably because when we whistle we often change the pitch by a tongue arch. However this involves a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SET OF PHYSICAL PARAMETERS.
The tongue arch for range theorists are correct in stating that their tongue does help them. However their explanation is incorrect.
In the final analysis I consider their reasoning moot. Or maybe their explanation is moot. As the "why" really doesn't matter..
-
Sound Advice - how is he new version different from previous versions?
-
@Kehaulani
It's not substantially different. Other than one or two "forwards" or comments from related authorities discussing Roy Stevens (or his predecessor William Costello) it is word for word the same as the 1971 first edition. As I said (above) the only and I mean ONLY changes to the text occur in the title. Which p's me off a trifle. I'm a purist I guess. To repeat,The original, 1971 first edition title was,
"The Stevens- Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique and Embouchure Self-Analysis".
Yet fer some reason the 2006 SECOND edition just says,
"Embouchure Trouble & Self Analysis".
Which I don't like. For starters? It's too negative. Why insert the word "trouble" into a self-help book? "Oh my God I'm having embouchure TROUBLE". This is the way the brain thinks.
As for me? I personally don't care because I was going to buy the book anyway. Regardless if they titled it "Fractured Fairy Tales" or "Tales of Robin Hood". It's still some of the best reading for trumpet that I've ever seen. This'll be my third copy I've worn out.
Originally the only way that Roy Stevens advertised his system was in a really tiny ad in "Downbeat Magazine". A buddy of mine from Central Mass caught the ad and bought the book. Later taking lessons direct from Roy Stevens waaay back in the day. Otherwise I'd never have heard of it.
This friend excelled rapidly. Developed a consistent G/DHC soon afterwards by following the book as best he could. But my friend was and may still be a total fanatical trumpet geek. He soon burned out his throat from a nasty neck puff issue. I mean the guy would blow double Cs all day long and it really put a load in his larnyx. Or rather his "Adam's Apple". It was an ugly neck puff unlike the more common full throat "bullfrog" like puff. Like the one that I used to have.
But my friend is kinda on the short side. Whereas those cats with the full sized puffs are taller folks like me. Im six ft five in and if I let it? My throat would swell out to close to 20 inches in circumference. As did Bill Chase's neck puff. Or his veritable "Italian twin" Lin Biviano.
Bill and Lin used to so closely resemble each other in size, hairstyle and even playing that we folks from around Boston (which was the area where they're both from!) used to say they were "separated at birth".
I got to ask Bill about my own neck puff when I was still a pup. About seventeen years old in 1972. A precious memory lemme tell ya. So I went to a brass clinic in Andover, MA that autumn. During the Q & A time I told Bill that I was concerned about my neck puff.
Well the irony here was that at the time I had no idea that Bill had one of the biggest neck puffs in the business. He told me,
"My neck just goes out".
Like there wasn't anything that he could do about it. So using his guidance I continued to allow my own throat to expand when I played in the upper register for another 25 years. Then I finally hurt myself but fixed it fairly quick with some isometric exercises designed to both identify and strengthen those throat muscles which can prevent an expanding neck.
But back to the book. Probably the most fascinating thing I've learned about the book in more recent years is that its editor "Dr William Moriarty" is still alive! Or at least he was alive when the 2nd edition was published in 2006. Also, Moriarty was the real author of the book. He did all the typing and editing anyway. Working directly off of Roy Steven's dictation. He explains this in the very last video found on the "Roy Stevens Tribute Page". That video is among the most instructive ones I've ever seen and that's even including all the truly good videos published by Roy Roman. Also on same page
-
@Sound-Advice said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:
"I am vehemently opposed to the 'common ground argument' of the (EEE) action of the tongue for the upper register combined with the relative jaw motion because:
A. Raising the tongue to the EE position raises the floor of the oral cavity and thus cuts the oral cavity approximately in half.
Result 1: Vibration is inhibited and muffled in the smaller chamber, leaving a smaller, basic sound to be amplified by the instrument.
Result 2: EEE position of tongue prevents cheek muscles from fighting or resisting air column in the mouth cavity because the air column doesn't reach the cheek muscle. Lip tensions therefore become strained.
Result 3: EEE position of tongue causes air leakage through nasal passage, reducing needed compression at the lips (I would say that 100% of the players that articulate EEE leak air through the nose at the peak of their range"...
End quote of Roy Stevens up to that point...
Sound-Advice... This to meee reads as one dimensional reasoning.
Result 1: Vibration is not a function of chamber volume alone. You cannot forget about the pressure wave within the chamber and the ability of the smaller volume to allow pressure to work in favor vibratory support. (Also the MRI video disproves this read)
Result 2: EEE position of tongue and on influence on cheek function, cranial nerve 12 is independent of cranial nerve 5. If you have not had a stroke (maybe this is Roy Stevens problem) the tongue position had no control override of a person's ability to compensate with cranial nerve control. I'm a physician, don't mess with me man when it comes to physiology of the oral cavity.
Result 3: Nose leakage? Really? Another independent neurological control, cranial nerve 10. We, as humans, have counter regulatory control over these strictures to protect for these actions. So to quote Monty Python: I blow my nose at you!
Allora Pocket Trumpet 2014
Harrelson Summit 2017
Kanstul 1526 2012
Getzen Power Bore 1961
Getzen Eterna 4-Valve Fulgelhorn 1974
Martin Committee 1946
Olds Super Recording 1940
Olds Recording (LA) 1953
Olds Recording (Fullerton) 1967
Olds Ambassador 1965 -
Does the introductory material contain any new or in-depth material? I'm still wondering what it's value is over the original.
-
@Dr-GO said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:
Nose leakage? Really? Another independent neurological control, cranial nerve 10. We, as humans, have counter regulatory control over these strictures to protect for these actions. So to quote Monty Python: I blow my nose at you!
Go's got a good point there. I remember when I had my tonsils and adenoids removed and when I went back to playing, air was coming out of my nose. It scared the hell out of me! However, I LEARNED to not let this happen. As for the EEE and the tongue being used to go from register to register, I think we're forgetting just how flexible the tongue really is. Its an amazing body part with the ability to triple tongue, shape itself for over 100 languages, sing opera, cuss like a sailor, and please someone in the right context. It's the octopus of body parts. It can lay flat, fill the oral cavity, curl into a tube, roll up on itself, and the list goes on. My guess? S-A is probably right. He is not forming his tongue in a traditional manner to form EEEE. He is more than likely using the "back of the tongue" along with the jaw to achieve various ranges. I've looked at more fMRI's (I think its fMRI's) than I care to count and read enough literature on this topic to do a dissertation. From everything I've seen, read, told by professional trumpet and brass players and was taught from my youth, it all strongly suggests that the tongue (and jaw) are paramount in a person's ability to change registers. I really think that it boils down to "what part of the tongue" and once again, it seems that a small few of us (Go, me, Kehaulani) have possibly conquered (yet again) an age old debate. It should be noted that if it were not for S-A's post, we could not have jumped into this issue. Please, Please watch this video starting at 1:00. Jon explains things in a very understandable manner. You will find this video very educational as it pertains to this topic. Please give feedback as to what you think about Jon's video as it applies to this topic. Thanks
Youtube Video -
@Dr-GO said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:
@Sound-Advice said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:
So to quote Monty Python: I blow my nose at you!
-
@Dr-GO,
This takes me back to my undergraduate in physiology and scrambling to create an acronym to memorize it. While I generally hate jargon, this is a situation where knowing what nerves effect what body parts is important to the topic. The rest of the list is for everyone elses dining and dancing pleasure. Also it tells briefly what nerves effect what body parts.
I Olfactory Smell
II Optic Vision
III Oculomotor Eye ball movements, Lids, Pupil.lens
IV Trochlear Downward & Inward Eye movement
V Trigeminal Touch, taste, mastication, temperature
VI Abducens Eye movement
VII Facial Facial expression, Taste, Salivation
VIII Vestibulocochlear (Auditory) Hearing, Equilibrium
IX Glossophrayngeal Salivation, Swallowing, Taste
X Vagus Visceral Muscle movement
XI Spinal Accessory (Trapezius & Sternocleidomastoid
muscle movement)
XII Hypoglossal Tongue & Swallowing -
@Kehaulani
I fart in your general direction? What a waste. Everybody likes their own brand. -
@Kehaulani said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:
Does the introductory material contain any new or in-depth material? I'm still wondering what it's value is over the original.
I might as well use your post as a chance to make a correction. Here goes.
There is little if any "new material" within the 2nd edition. I did however make a HUGE ERROR in an earlier post. As THERE ARE A GREAT NUMBER OF PAGES MISSING IN THE NEW EDITION!!!
This kinda saddens me because these held the more advanced technical exercises. Some if which were creative and well written. They actually interested me. I'm going off my memory here Kehaulani so bear with me. But as I recall the original 1st edition text went up t o page 188. Whereas this 2nd edition stops at 111.
I'm personally not without some recourse here because buried among my keepsakes, books and related utter accumulated JUNK lie at least 70 or so photo-copied pages of the original text. I received these 20 plus years ago from an old friend who buggered a librarian from North Texas State Univ. yeah another long story.So please accept my correction and apology. Remember,
I've only had this book a couple days. And it was only just tonight as I set down to practice my favorite exercise on page 134 - 136 that I realized that these were cut out of the new edition.
As I recall the second half of the book contained not only exercises but much of Mr William Costello's original text. So I'm both partly disappointed here and partly pleased. There's certainly enough positive information here in the book to keep me happy. I've even directed my student Matt to buy the book. He's a pretty good fit for the system. Esp when compared to me. I have to work a little harder at the system than some.So PLEASE TAKE NOTE!
The 2nd edition is missing a significant portion of the book's second half. -
Unfortunately, I am now more confused.
What's the difference (briefly) between the "Stevens-Costello book Vol. 1, Vol. 2" and "Embouchure Trouble and Self Analysis, or the Stevens-Costello "Fabulous Embouchure Technique"?
http://stevens-costellochops.com/ -
@Kehaulani said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:
Unfortunately, I am now more confused.
What's the difference (briefly) between the "Stevens-Costello book Vol. 1, Vol. 2" and "Embouchure Trouble and Self Analysis, or the Stevens-Costello "Fabulous Embouchure Technique"?
http://stevens-costellochops.com/You're asking me to be brief? Good luck with that.
I'm very familiar with the,
"Stevens Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique and Embouchure Self Analysis".
Is the original, first edition. Published in 1971. 188 pages long.The other two are partial reprints of the first edition. As I said earlier my copy of "Embouchure Trouble & Self Analysis" just arrived in the mail a few days ago. It was a partial disappointment. As it is only 111 pages long. Obviously some pages are missing. Inc my favorite technical exercises I'd hoped to find.
I have recently written North Texas State zuniv music library. As their website indicates a file of the first edition. Hopefully they'll send me a PDF. As they once did some 20 years ago.
That's abt as "brief" as I'm capable of.
-
Thanks...
-
Oh poop. UNT just sent me a response to my request for a PDF file of the first edition of the Stevens Costello book.
"Sorry but we can not fulfill requests from non university patrons at this time".
I may follow up with a phone call next week. If indeed they have staffers able to take calls. Granted that it's understandable that during the pandemic crisis the school would be cutting back on such services. However one of the purposes of UNT has always been to provide as much music related literature as possible.
In fact the whole life works of Don Ellis's compositions is on file at UNT. Don's intent was to donate his creative works to UNT for the specific purpose of music education. That and as a free resource for other musicians and bands.
Naturally it disappoints me that UNT isn't exactly living up to the intent of Ellis's donation.
My last resort will be to clean up my office. As somewhere buried in poorly organized junk are the last pages of the described first edition.
-
@Sound-Advice said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:
@Kehaulani
. . one of the purposes of UNT has always been to provide as much music related literature as possible.Are you sure of that? To provide that, considering the copywrite laws are followed in the first place, calls for a lot of labour and manpower hours. And to provide that for free? Where does the money come from? I can easily see them limiting such service to UNT staff, personnel, and alumni. That's a lot of people in and of itself.
-
@Kehaulani
Can't the information be acquired via an inter-library loan? Way back when I did research (back during the first black plague), I was able to get just about any text this way.
On a side note, a lot of information and time has been used on this topic. Let's put the rubber to the road; Where in the world will a person use a triple high C? Can it be slurred up to? Can it be double tongued? Can it be part of something graceful and how about the notes between double high C and triple high C? Can they be played in a musical manner? If so, bring it forth. It would be good to see or hear how playing between DHC and THC fits as it pertains to that thing called music. Yes, I went through my stint of "Look how high I can play!" and ended up doing it quite well. What I've learned over the decades is that the use of high C to DHC is rare unless you're doing Bergeron's part on Phat charts or Maynard charts and making passages sound musical between DHC and THC is basically nonexistent and my lower register suffered. Basically, the quest for THC it reminds me of young boys straining in the grade school bathroom to see who can piss the furthest. Just about the only place these notes are needed are at the end of a song or phrase. I still contend that if a person can play all twelve major scales two octaves, that will cover 99.99% of anything a person will run in to. Can I play the high notes? yes. Can I pee a long way? yes. But between the two, I feel better after a big pee. High notes for the sake of high notes is testosterone driven Bullshit, plane and simple. In closing, what does this quest for the rarely used note (THC) do to a person's ability to maintain the flexibility to play Paganini or Bach? Maynard (who was wonderful at what he did and two thumbs up!) spent his life in the stratosphere but at what expense? Have you ever heard Maynard play Bach? Probably not. Is this a Maynard slam? No. I'm just saying that some endevours come at a cost. -
@Dr-Mark said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:
@Kehaulani
Where in the world will a person use a triple high C?To call their dogs in their neighborhood?
-
Above and beyond entertainment value? I agree there isn't any need to play a triple C. With perhaps a few exceptions I'll list at the end. But to quote William Costello (from the book)0
"A man who can lift 200 lbs over his head will surely have no trouble lifting 150 lbs. Or even less so 100 lbs".
It's a loose quote but pretty accurate.
If we compare the "200 pounds" to the triple C?
Then the double C is analogous to the 150 lbs. And yes I've seen and played lead trumpet parts with double C's and notes close around it.Unfortunately for me the way my chops used to be programmed only allowed me to JUST BARELY be able to play double C. In other words I was like the man who could just barely lift 150 lbs.
Now had this been my only problem I'd have been fine with it. However that "150 lbs" took EVERYTHING that I had physically. Comparing it to the double C that is.
And after playing that double C I wasn't worth much to the band afterwards. Because I had expended most of my reserve energy.
In the Stevens-Costello method we set the embouchure to be able to blow this double C from the very start. Beginners learned the embouchure and started out making little "statics", squeaks or "cyclonics" come out of the horn. Just wispy little tones. Some people catch on right away. Others like me take longer. I had to make a mouthpiece change (larger) to pull it off.
We shoot for high G at first but accept the high C. Resting often because tired chops can not learn much and the whole process of playing while exhausted produce bad habits.
Soon as we get a wispy little high G we continue gaining control and range. I continued above the high G until I could sustain a few notes above double C. Like an E or F/double C. At this point?
I knew that I was setting my embouchure as directed by Stevens-Costello. Because if I hadn't done so I wouldn't have been playing so high to begin with!!. THAT'S PART OF THE TEST! The goal of starting out playing extremely high notes is not necessarily to become a screech player BUT AS A CHECK TO PROVE THAT WE'RE PLAYING CORRECTLY!
That was last November. Soon as I could get notes in or around double C I took this same embouchure and worked it down to my concert B flat tuning note. NOW I started playing conventional exercises. It is at this point where I can't really fail.
Because we all know that building a middle register is far easier than building an extremely high register. And the low register is much easier than the middle one. Our teachers all started us out in the middle and lower registers when we were kids because,
A. Teaching lower tones is far easier than playing high ones.
B. Our teachers never knew any better.This is what Roy Roman calls the "Evolutionary Method". And again WE ALL WERE TAUGHT THIS WAY.
The main problem with the evolutionary method is that only a small fraction of those playing this way will ever develop the complete range of the instrument. This is because only a small % of trumpet players have teeth, lips and jaw etc that automatically place their embouchure in the CORRECT position to allow extreme range.
One of my own beliefs, outside of the Stevens System is that perhaps these lucky few also have a particularly elastic surface on their upper lip. The part that vibrates on their lip is well suited to sustaining a vibration in the extreme upper register.
Not so for the rest of us. Our chops USUALLY tend to be incorrectly set up to allow extreme range. So we mash the mouthpiece into our chops. Our range has a ceiling. Usually we're limited to a High C to D area. I was a little luckier and had a workable and nice sounding G/High C.
But it was so hard to blow! And difficult to just "sit on" for any length of time.
If you remember only ONE THING about the Stevens-Costello method it is that we demand that our teeth NOT GET IN THE WAY OF THE LIP/AIR intersection!!!
So many trumpet players do not understand this! Way back when I was in the road I decided that although I didn't have the time to convert my chops completelyover to the Stevens-Costello system that never the less I was at least going to KEEP MY UPPER LIP IN A POSITION WHERE MY TEETH DIDN'T BLOCK IT FROM VIBRATING.
What a freakin eye opener that was! PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF THE FOLLOWING. PLEASE BELIEVE ME!
Back on the road playing 5 nights/week plus rehearsals & travelling. It all took a toll on my chops. While I didn't need to play any high F's and G's on my gig I still had trouble with endurance and power up to High C and D. The singers demanding that I play louder.
Well that took a lot out of me. I tried all sorts of ways to conserve my strength but then I remembered the number 1 point in Stevens-Costello. Roy Stevens said,
"You can't play on your teeth".
Meaning that most of us do not leave enough upper lip below our upper teeth. In order that is to sustain a vibration in the upper register. We're always fixated upon our lip position on the mouthpiece. Forgetting of course that our upper teeth are equally important. The teeth act like the other "bookend" to the teeth. I guess that another term could be called the other clamp on a vise.
If our teeth cover too much of the upper lip? The tone will usually cut off somewhere as we begin to ascend into the upper register. Or the tone can grow weaker.
So right then and there I decided to DROP MORE OF MY UPPER LIP BELOW MY TEETH!!!
Almost immediately after consciously pushing my upper lip down a tad my strength to blow high C and such more than doubled. I could BLOW the roof off of the room throughout my whole range!! A high C and D felt like nothing. I could blow them at will, all night long and loud as hell. The guys in the band loved my new way of playing. This meant better job security and a more friendly atmosphere in the band.
Granted that my "practice room range" didn't increase. Nor would it because I hadn't converted completely over to the Stevens-Costello design. Like I'm doing now. My sound (back then) had a serious ceiling around a high G. But at the time it hardly mattered.
So I can see why people have questions about Stevens-Costello. A working musician probably shouldn't expect to convert completely over to Stevens-Costello. However he can still pick & choose those universal elements that may support his existing limited embouchure. As I just described.
Back to work now!
I'm from among the lucky few who aren't.much affected by the endemic. Being retired and hsve a small business that largely comes to me thank Gid. So I have plenty of time to convert over to Stevens-Costello. This is my fifth month into it. And am progressing nicely.But I want to share a caution to all!
My right, front incisor broke off in August of 2018. Due to roughly 46 years of jamming for my high G's and whatnot. Thus my old way of playing was history. I couldn't play trumpet for crap.
Now had I fully converted to Stevens-Costello at a younger age ? I might very well have saved that tooth. Incidentally my Stevens-Costello embouchure is completely unaffected by tooth loss. While on my old embouchure?
My former way of playing is ruined.
