Lifetime quest finally paying off!

@ROWUK said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

I think that you guys are getting off track - like on so many threads here. I prefer hammering the shit out of people (thank you Dr. Mark!)

Doctors will always behave like doctors even on a trumpet forum (and will then blaming other doctors for it), nothing can change that.
I also prefer hammering the shit out of people but that only leads to deleted posts or even a ban. ("...Oh sorry, but somebody is complaining about your post"). Especially on TH I found that people who produce large quantities of BS can tackle every critic by complaining by their moderator mom or dad. The moderators there will be very happy to use the scissors. Even today one of the moderators of TH instructs members to complain instead of to react, the world upside down, or maybe only the result of an immature world perspective.

@FranklinD said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

Even today one of the moderators of TH instructs members to complain instead of to react, the world upside down, or maybe only the result of an immature world perspective.

Sounds like a moderator with power issues. I bet they always had to be captain of the (insert favorite sport) or they would take their ball home.

Dr GO

Again, getting back on tract, Sound-Advice, any supportive evidence you have in going through extreme registers without the use of his tongue? I am still baffled by this concept, in light of how the normal physiology of the oropharynx, motor coordination of the embouchure, and respiratory control would suggest otherwise.

@Dr-GO said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

Again, getting back on tract, Sound-Advice, any supportive evidence you have in going through extreme registers without the use of his tongue?

Funny that you call the use of the tongue "back on tract". You seem to be willing to do everything and to make every switch to escape Robin's hammer.
As a rule I never read posts on TH about the High Register Development because it is always freak time there but I make/made an exception for the posts of Sound Advice/Lionel. I read them as amusement. On TH almost everybody but a few newbies ignore his posts but here he found, under another name, new victims. Reading his posts as amusement does no harm and has the benefit that there is no reason at all to answer them. A funny sidetrack is that his reactions on any post (fe about a certain mouthpiece) will turn in seconds in a post about his achievements, real nice to watch that.
His lifetime quest for the extreme register has nothing to do with trumpet playing but seems to be something in his personality. Every critic on his posts are diverted by him by using the argumentum ad hominem, a lousy and very dubious logical tool which means: playing the man, not the ball. For numerous times he used the argument that all critic on his fata orgasma trumpet stories come from people with no range, so from people who are jealous and or frustrated. In the same way he attacked classical players, who defended that they spent years to get the tone and articulation they needed and so did not invest in the extreme register because that was way less important or even not important at all for them, by putting them down as incomplete players, ignorant and more of that stuff, in fact as losers.
So dr. Go, your whole discussion of the use of the tongue is senseless. That will go on in the yes-no mode forever. If this discussion can have any benefit it's about the extreme high register an sich, is it useful for??? Is it necessary for?? Is it reachable for??? Is it worth a lifetime quest?? Is it a trick or is it evolution??? and so on. That questions are interesting not the bragging things.
So IMO the advice of SA is not "sound" at all. It is wrong and dangerous and the way he handles this whole topic is wrong. The more cause his "methods" are also read by youngsters who will eventually do the most crazy things and tricks for an easy to get high register. The extreme high register is not an isolated target but a certain and specialized part of the trumpet environment, useful for some, less useful for others. Let's discuss that and not some unimportant detail as the tongue position. Or, the pages long and very tiring and IMO senseless posts about yes-or-no air pressure on TH.

GeorgeB

I've been reading this thread but because I don't consider myself a high range player ( and actually don't aspire to be one ) I have kept silent until now. I agree with much of what FranklinD has written here, especially about Sound Advice/Lionel. In some of his early posts at TH, I actually believed that Lionel was who and what he claimed to be, but where Lionel's BS starts to show in in his long winded posts. The more he talks the more nonsensical he begins to sound. When challenged to prove his achievements by providing the forum with a video or recording of himself he came up with a lame excuse. I will continue to follow this thread for entertainment, but honestly, I can't take it seriously even though I have a great deal of respect for the posters...with the exception of Mr. Sound Advice.

Dr GO

@FranklinD said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

So dr. Go, your whole discussion of the use of the tongue is senseless. That will go on in the yes-no mode forever. If this discussion can have any benefit it's about the extreme high register an sich, is it useful for??? Is it necessary for?? Is it reachable for??? Is it worth a lifetime quest?? Is it a trick or is it evolution??? and so on. That questions are interesting not the bragging things.

Ah... I believe Dr. Mark very nicely first started bringing up the tongue relevance (I refer you to post 20). I do not think Dr. Mark bringing this issue to light is the least bit senseless. My contribution to this ongoing discussion was to support his position with somne medical evidence. I do not think discussing the use of the tongue is senseless at all, as this discussion brings science, physiology and trumpet performance to a higher level, unless of course your above commentary as more tongue in cheek.

@FranklinD said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

You seem to be willing to do everything and to make every switch to escape Robin's hammer.

Afraid of Robin!? You gotta be shitting me. Robin has been a wealth of help for GO, me and a bag sack full of others. Robin and me are similar. We like to help people (no joke) but when someone gets on the site and starts peddling snake oil, we'll absolutely hammer the shit out of them, especially if they come across arrogantly and knowledged when they are not. Go packs a pretty good hammer too. Rowuk's a wealth of help for those willing to park their egos and listen (and most importantly FOR FREE!). I can't count the times that the hammer could have been used by any three of us but instead, we tend to use a gentle hand and back up our statements with credible data. Its only when the misguided poster get snarky that the hammer flies. Have Rowuk and me lock horns? You bet! But that's the result of strong personalities and a strong passion for what we love and a possible knee jerk moment when one of us is having a horrible day. Nope, Go isn't afraid of any hammer, since he has his own and mine too when warranted. As for Sound-Advice playing the man, not the ball, good luck with that. There's people on here so smart, we can make them feel like a sub-par college freshman that just walked into an advanced statistics class by mistake.
As for the necessity for extreme upper register, different strokes for different folks. Can I play in the upper register? Heck yes and have been doing it since the 1970's. However, now that my ears have grown a bit, give me Bach any day.
As for Sound-Advice, who knows? Maybe his idea could be the next best thing to peanut butter but no one will know if he doesn't support his claim. In short, we should not be so old or closed minded that only "OUR" way is the only way. New ideas pop up that takes everyone by surprise. Who would have thought that the trumpet (which was keyed more like a wood wind) would become a valve instrument? Who would have thought that if we just remove or channel out the sewage from the streets that disease would lessen?

Dr. Mark, your post is very unclear for me. What are you doing ? Threatening me with the triad Rowuk, Dr. Go and Dr. Mark? Forget it, that's fantasy. And if you are so smart, it must be very easy for you to read the posts here again and see that my remark was based on, and directed to, something from the hand of Dr. Go and not from Dr. Mark. Or are they the same person and is the discussion between Dr. Go and Dr. Mark something like a fantasy discours between Dr. Jekyll and mr (Dr.) Hyde? And I did not say Dr. Go is afraid of Robin, only that he is avoiding Rowuk's post by any means. Can be because of a lot of reasons most probably some that's caused by a quality that doctors seem to share with the Pope: infallability.
To be clear: I completely agree with the post of Rowuk about this subject, as well as about the mechanics, evolution instead of revolution, as well as about the (lack of) necessity of the extreme high register for different type of players.
Personally I would love to have an open and broad high register up to a high G, above high C. For me that's the regular range of a B-flat trumpet. But that will take some more time for me, I'm afraid, evolutions don't go fast. And I invest now mainly in articulation and above all my love for the trumpet is 100% based on my search for the purity of tone, that's my drive. And not the applause of a bunch of high school kids after another DHC.

@FranklinD said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

Threatening me with the triad Rowuk, Dr. Go and Dr. Mark? Forget it, that's fantasy.

How about a bit heaping slice of go F^^^ yourself. You feel threatened? Read your first line or here, allow me to help;
Dr-GO sez, "Again, getting back on tract, Sound-Advice, any supportive evidence you have in going through extreme registers without the use of his tongue?"
You responded
"Funny that you call the use of the tongue "back on tract". You seem to be willing to do everything and to make every switch to escape Robin's hammer."
Here's the rub. You tried to warn everyone that Sound-Advice is a hack and to be aware. I even PM'ed you saying that you are probably on to something. Since we approached Sound Advice (S-A) in a collegial manner and asked that he produce evidence to support his claim, that pissed you off because we didn't follow your warning. And when we didn't you referred to us as "victims" Here's what you said;
"On TH almost everybody but a few newbies ignore his posts but here he found, under another name, new victims. Who are you calling victims? If you are interested in name calling and labeling I'd suggest you go back to TH. I think a good post should end like it began so how about a bit heaping slice of go F^^^ yourself.

Sound Advice

@Dr-Mark
I agree that a video would be preferable. That said I've never challenged the concept of those who are happy with their usage of the tongue arch. It's a non-issue to me. If it works for you and you like it? Great! More power to ya.

As perhaps you may have noticed I'm in a major rebuilding phase. Since suffering a nasty dental mishap about 20 months ago I've now taken on the Stevens system approach full time. Frankly my chops have much to learn but they are learning very fast. After I changed over to Stevens last November it was like I was ten years old and never played the trumpet before. My chops actually felt a little numb like they did when I was in the 4th grade beginner trumpet class.

Little things like merely articulating a top line F natural was very tricky. I'm still kinda weak there but again, improving rapidly. My conservative estimate of my recovery is that by the end of this summer I oughta be able to produce a credible video. Then by the following summer I should play about as well as I once did before the injury but with a more secure upper register. That and better ease of playing.

As it stands now I'm going through much of the same exercises as I did in college years ago. Back when I was studying the more conventional or "Evolutionary Process" as described by Roy Roman. Roman isn't completely opposed to the conventional or "evolutionary approach". And he says so in his videos. What does appear to greatly concern him are the multitude of trumpet players whom he claims are held back by playing "incorrectly".

And therein lies a term that probably upsets more brass teachers than anything or anyone else. However Roman certainly has the chops to back it all up. He also has the personal history of someone who had terrible chop problems but was swiftly fixed by the Stevens System. A year after starting he found himself. Playing for kings.Or at least the President of the United States. Roy Roman's resume is thus impressive as Hell. In other words he was just another one of the multitudes of "duffers" who couldn't play high F to save his life. But through proper coaching directly from Roy Stevens he soon became the utter monster player whom he now is.

In fact if you want to see a video of someone who does not use a tongue arch in any register? The best reference I know of are the Roy Roman videos. Either the ones shown on You Tube or better yet the "Roy Stevens Tribute Page". Sorry, can't paste links but you'll find it.

Roman describes himself as applying "90% of the Stevens-Costello system" in his method. However to my knowledge he's actually 100% into it. Everyone really ought to watch those videos. Extremely impressive. And you wouldn't have believed how powerful the students who studied seriously with Roy Stevens were. They were so strong it made a friend of mine almost cry. He wanted to give up playing for a brief period lol. Those cats who studied with Stevens were like a whole row of Rashan Ross types. Virtually "sitting on double C's" with triple C capacity.

If someone infers that I'm a cocky SOB? All that I can say is that you're entirely mistaken. The last thing that I wanted to do was stir up the old contentious issue of whether the tongue arch works or not. However when you view the Roy Roman videos you're seeing the man play all three and a half of his octaves with no discernable tongue arch movement at all I think that Roman mentions this. However I don't think that he tells his students to not use the thing. Or at least he doesn't make a big deal out of it.

In my own life I've tried various chop systems. This recent change to the Stevens will surely be my last. If only because I can't play any other way. It also only uses about half the energy to blow a high F as my former Maggio type setting did.

When I used to blow on those puckered "Downstream" embouchures I did employ a tongue arch. In fact I used a raised tongue movement on both of the puckered receded jaw setting AND a more forward jaw setting. As both puckered out systems actually were helped by the movement of my tongue during the execution of interval changes. Particularly when slurring.

About a little over a week ago I ordered another copy of the "Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique and Embouchure Self Analysis" Colin Brass has it for sale. And I gave Allan Colin my credit card number. Nice guy. We chatted a but. Very knowledgeable. He actually knew Roy Stevens back in the day. Well after my complete book comes i will copy and paste what Stevens said about the tongue arch. That's a promise.

"All paths end in a tie". Maynard

PS: I've had to carve a different kind of mouthpiece to get the Stevens System to finally work for me. That and make good substantial progress. However the mouthpiece I made doesn't look so good on the outside. Not on camera. So I've invested considerably in a lathe and a drill press. The drill press because I prefer a couple of asymmetric little "diivots" on the piece. Also?
Y
I like the bottom edge of my piece flat. Like close to straight across from "7 o'clock to 5 o'clock'. Then I like the top of my piece a tad deeper than the bottom. The squared off portion on the bottom makes it easier to locate the preferred position of the mouthpiece on my chops. Also, its a Very large inner rim dimension on a slightly shallow cup. And with a well rounded but narrow rim contour. My guess is that others would hate it. And yet I've learned so much from it. Just as soon as I build a duplicate mouthpiece in brass and it looks better? Eye appeal and all that PLUS aftsr II improve a little bit more? I will look into hosting a video. Thank you.

You may feel free to accept or reject any idea or concept of mine as you will. I'm the last person who wants to appear like a dictator. I'm just saying that I'm finally having the time if my life I can't wait for tomorrow because I want to practice even longer and better. Each new day brings better results.

Dr GO

@FranklinD said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

To be clear: I completely agree with the post of Rowuk about this subject, as well as about the mechanics, evolution instead of revolution, as well as about the (lack of) necessity of the extreme high register for different type of players.
Personally I would love to have an open and broad high register up to a high G, above high C. For me that's the regular range of a B-flat trumpet. But that will take some more time for me, I'm afraid, evolutions don't go fast. And I invest now mainly in articulation and above all my love for the trumpet is 100% based on my search for the purity of tone, that's my drive. And not the applause of a bunch of high school kids after another DHC.

FranklinD, lets agree to agree... together. I am with you on this, OK. Rowuk and Dr. Mark are on the right track. And yes it does take time to open and develop a broad higher register, and yes this takes time, when using suggestions by Rowuk and Dr. Mark. So keep reading on and absorb the amazing expertise of the aforementioned members here on TB, and please do not let your anger of the medical profession cloud your ability to learn here, and yes, physicians are fallible, and to think otherwise would be fallacy.

Things go a little bit out of hand here.
Dr. Mark, I don't understand your reaction at all. First I don't feel threatened but I thought it was your purpose. Maybe I was wrong but I am Dutch and your complicated post had too much double bottoms in it for me to understand really well. So calm down. Second, I only pointed out that you was reacting on a post not meant for you but for Dr. Go so you can turn mad but it's not my fault but yours. Advice: not all posts are about you! Think again and count to ten. Anyway, you with your evidence concerning SA, wake up man, NO chance!

Dr. Go: I am afraid we don't agree and I am quite sure you know that. I would love to have comment and help on my playing of Rowuk but I am substantially less sure that I will appreciate the amazing expertise of Dr. Mark or yours, not because I think you have no expertise but more because I don't believe the ego thing is the way to go, at least not for me.
And I know of course that close reading is not a recognized capability doctors are famous for but for your interest it's not the medical profession that's the problem, I have great, GREAT respect for that profession, but the doctors as human beings are, in fact they are a difficult and dangerous group in a political sense.

Dr GO

I am going to request the administrator connect with you FrankinD as you are just becoming too confrontational to this thread and now you need to be reeled in.

@Sound-Advice said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

Roy Stevens Tribute Page

Thanks for the Roy Stevens Tribute Page.
Here's what Roy sez about the tongue pgs. 19 $ 20;
Tonguing and Its Relationship to the Jaw
I am very much opposed to any strict rule of tonguing to the top or bottom. My attitude is the same regarding the K attack. For a rule to exist there must be a consistency in the elements upon which the rule was built. The tonguing rule must be as consistent (or inconsistent) as the moving part, in this instance the lower jaw. To effectively block the air column to the lips so that the retrogressive action of the tongue leaves the striking point as close to the point of response as is possible, the player should tongue to the most forward point. A receded jaw player should and must tongue to the top teeth) top gum line, or even higher, to the beginning of the hard palate. (However, almost all receded jaw players bring the jaw down and forward for the low tones, yet most of them continue to tongue to the top. This can only result in leaky, split, indistinct attacks. The striking point of the tongue must drop as the jaw lowers and comes forward. If the bottom teeth edges finally protrude beyond the top teeth edges, the striking point of the tip of the tongue must be to the bottom teeth edges.) In double and triple tonguing, the K striking point to the roof of the mouth will adjust relative to the speed of the tongue and the forward striking point.
Players who articulate from a position of parallel open teeth edges and play all registers by bringing the jaw up and down in the predetermined jaw position can tongue bolded textand play all registers with the same striking point of the tongue. The tongue can strike the top teeth edges and slightly touch the bottom teeth edges or strike bottom teeth edges and slightly touch the top teeth edges.
Those who play with the jaw slightly forward must tongue to the bottom teeth edges. (I, in fact, prefer the bottom teeth edges since I play with my bottom teeth edges a fraction beyond the open, parallel teeth edges concept. I find the leverage principles of muscular behavior more to my advantage. It also helps overcome physical deficiencies due to irregularities in my bottom teeth formation.)
At no time should the top of the tongue go through the lips and cause unnecessary lip separation, because arm and mouthpiece pressure will then have to increase radically to offset the beveling apart of the two lips. The rule: Tongue to the most forward point and as close to the point o." response (vibrating area) as possible. The tongue should not be sluggish. The tongue should move the same rate of speed (striking force) whether the air column is slow or fast or whether playing slow or fast.
Use the syllable DEH for rapid single tonguing, and DET crisp closing off of sound irrespective of the value of the tone. For example, crisp staccato - DET - longer notes D Eh - T. The above syllable establishes definitely the end of a tone, which then becomes the beginning of the next. It also permits the concept of playing with full value.
Think of tonguing in the following terms:
TONGUE STOP: Most forward teeth edges receive the forward thrust of the tip of the tongue. This seals the teeth aperture and acts as a brake interrupting the air column to the lips.
TONGUE START (The end is the beginning): A retrogressive action or withdrawal of the tongue that releases air to the lips already aligned in playing formation. Thus by tongue-stopping one tone, we are in the correct position to tongue start the next.
The force behind the air column should not be diminished at each tongue stop but should remain constant, as if playing slurred. Thus, the embouchure setup, which is resisting the air column, will not break down or collapse after each note. Motion by the jaw and embouchure muscles, when tonguing, should be the same as when slurring; the absolute minimum.
Further observations on the jaw I do not advocate a loose and flexible jaw, but rather a firmly established

Next? here's a snippet from blackwellstrumpetbasics.com
Anchor Tonguing / K-Tongue Modified
When I say, “some tacos” the “ta” is made with the middle, fat part of the tongue against the roof of the mouth. This movement is close to what’s called Anchor-Tonguing, or the K-Tongue Modified.
Now say the sound “ka” or “car.” Notice that the articulation is made by the back, fat part of the tongue. Making the “K” sound in this way is what’s referred to as the “K-Tongue,” usually in regards to Double and Triple-Tonguing.
The “modification” from K-Tonguing to Anchor-Tonguing is that the articulation, while still happening with the center (left to right), fat part of the tongue, is striking further forward (toward teeth) on the roof of the mouth. The similarities between K-Tonguing and Anchor Tonguing is why Claude Gordon called it “K-Tongue Modified” in his publication Brass Playing is No Harder than Deep Breathing.

My guess? Stevens is using anchor tonguing. Possibly the confusion is with defining the term "Anchor tonguing.

Dr GO

Thanks for the Roy Stevens summary Dr. Mark. Much easier to see his thoughts in this context.

Kehaulani

I just have three short comments:

Who cares? So much of the substantial arguments are, to me, a waste of time. Extended micro-analysis. I guess medical doctors and engineers and the like, like this stuff. To me it sometimes raises to "the finger pointing at the moon and not the moon, itself. That's just me.
Some of the issues Sound Advice brings up have content that, in and of itself, are decent topics for discussion disregarding himself but getting some info from others on a topic he raises. What others say on a topic, and not necessarily Sound Advice, may be useful advice.
Leave Franklin alone. To me he's irascible and has some rough edges. But he also represents an individual voice that acts as a counter-balance to some others.

@Kehaulani said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

Who cares? So much of the substantial arguments are, to me, a waste of time. Extended micro-analysis. I guess medical doctors and engineers and the like, like this stuff. To me it sometimes raises to "the finger pointing at the moon and not the moon, itself. That's just me.

Who cares? Me.

Some of the issues Sound Advice brings up have content that, in and of itself, are decent topics for discussion disregarding himself but getting some info from others on a topic he raises. What others say on a topic, and not necessarily Sound Advice, may be useful advice.

I don't disagree

Leave Franklin alone. To me he's irascible and has some rough edges. But he also represents an individual voice that acts as a counter-balance to some others.

So you consider name calling and coming after me as a counterbalance? Careful! Best to stick to your knitting. I can take care of myself, thank you.

@FranklinD said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

I would love to have comment and help on my playing of Rowuk but I am substantially less sure that I will appreciate the amazing expertise of Dr. Mark or yours, not because I think you have no expertise but more because I don't believe the ego thing is the way to go, at least not for me.

That does it. You're off the Christmas list

Kehaulani

@Dr-Mark said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

So you consider name calling and coming after me as a counterbalance? Careful! Best to stick to your knitting. I can take care of myself, thank you.

This response just confirms what has been said above. Such a rush to judgement. Let's check our egos at the door.

First I have to thank Kehaulani for his nice words. In general my style of writing is not very popular by Americans, raised by the wisdom of: if you can't say something nice, say nothing. I am different. Definitely. But I am certainly not irascible, I write everything from a distance, not emotional but I really love irony which seems to be a dangerous taste in both America and Germany. Kehaulani must know that. But now Dr. Go is calling for a strong man to silence me and Dr. Mark is mad because I simply pointed to the fact that he reacted on the wrong post and now I am even off the Christmas list, that's bad, very bad.
Dr. Mark pointed out that he and Dr. Go are great friends with Rowuk. Dr. Mark even stated that he and Rowuk are similar.
Great, but why did they both not give any notice to Rowuk's hammering post here, ignoring that post completely and changing the subject to a 'who cares' (thanks Kehaulani) discussion instead of reacting to a full blown other point of view on the thread's topic which deserves full attention IMO. BTW I have read my former posts and I don't think I violated any rules, nor that I am guilty of being too confrontational (???), nor of name calling or coming after anyone. Maybe a tiny bit of my amazing expertise can give some help: if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.