Oiling trumpet

[Anthony Lenzo]

I have a brand new Yamaha trumpet that I recently bought .Since its my first brand new trumpet not used I wanted to be careful and take good care of it So the manual that came with this Yamaha Xeno says to oil it Before and After playing. Now it sounds like overkill to me so I asked my tech.guy and he said yes ! do it because it removes debris from the pistons.But then to confuse things he said it will be ready for the next day !!
So what does that mean don't oil it Before on the next day or not? Anyone that can figure what the heck I mean please help.Anthony

[Trumpetb]

Hi Anthony,

Congratulations on purchasing a great instrument from a great manufacturer.

In my experience pistons do not accumulate any debris.

All of the air that enters the instrument comes from the mouth of the player.

Ever since I started brushing my teeth every single time before I play an instrument I have had no trouble at all with debris in the instrument.

As for oiling. I oil before playing and during playing, and I dont care how much oil I waste doing it.

Yes I am wasteful and over oil. I must be wasting as much as 20 dollars a year on oil.

Of course I could reduce the amount of oil I use, and if I do that I would probably have to spend 600 dollars every few years on repairing valves I have wrecked through under oiling.

And after the valves wear out because I am being a scrooge or a skinflint on the minimal cost of oil then the instrument that I love will start playing very badly with leaky valves.

I was playing today on an instrument that is 101 years old and it still has the original copper valves that were fitted to it in 1924 and they still work perfectly. There is a good chance that over oiling protects valves.

The question is this, is it worth destroying a beautiful instrument to save a couple of pennies on oil.

I urge you to keep your instrument in perfect working order by using plenty of oil, and then you have a good chance of sounding like a monster player.

[Anthony Lenzo]

@Trumpetb Thank you Sir .I have been doing exactly what you have been doing oil before and after ,in fact
I also own a 100 year old trumpet it's a Conn.5B from 1924 it is built like a tank and the valves are fast because I do the same regiment I do on my Yamaha .Thank you so much for your kind help.Anthony

[J. Jericho]

I've said this before: I always oil valves before and after playing. Same for Amado water keys. Also, I floss and brush my teeth before playing.

[Anthony Lenzo]

@J-Jericho Brush my teeth always and oil .Great advice.

[Dale Proctor]

Typically when a trumpet is new, it’s best to oil the valves frequently because of the tighter fit in the bore, and wiping them down before re-oiling is a good idea, too. After they wear in a bit, I don’t think they will need oiling quite as much, but oiling a little too much is better than not enough.

As for the “before and after” comment, if you oil them after you play, that would seem to take care of the before when you pick it up again. Most oil evaporates a bit over time, but if you play every day, I wouldn’t think it would need oiling again if you oiled them after playing just the day before.

[Anthony Lenzo]

@Dale-Proctor Okay but that is what Yamaha suggests oil it Before that was my main question.I guess you can't hurt the trumpet by using too much oil.

[Trumpetb]

I will give a quick rundown on a little of what I know about oils.

Perhaps by this means I can address this particular question of the wisdom of oiling before rather than during or after playing.

There are many kinds of oil, if we ignore vegetable oils found in cooking and drying oils found in timber preservation or artwork, we have several kinds of oil that fall under the umbrella of mineral oils.

The action of refining and the fractional distillation of mineral oils typically derived from crude oil, produces paraffins, olefins and white oils.

Olefins are in fact not themselves mineral oils but they are found in mineral oils.

All of these are hydrocarbons with various and different chemical bonds.

The refining of crude oil results in paraffins and white oils, both of which are suitable as a lubricant of an appropriate viscosity for use in lubricating brass instrument valves.

The problem is many manufacturers blend different oils to arrive at the precise viscosity they desire in their product. They also add various additives that control things like deterioration over time and corrosion.

What this means is a valve oil will probably contain additives and will consist of a mix or blend of light oils that each have different properties.

If these various additives and additional oils are not completely miscible (mixable) they can over a short period of time separate when standing.

Additionally the different light oils in the mix will very probably evaporate at different rates.

The result of this is leaving oil in an instrument over time such as for a day or two or longer may result in the mix breaking down and the properties of the mix changing.

The lightest fractions evaporate first and this typically means that over time the oil may become thicker and make the valves sluggish.

The purest oils, like double and triple refined white oils, or the most modern oils such as ultra pure, or the modern synthetic oils such as the excellent Yamaha oil, do not suffer from these issues.

In short the more you pay the better the product.

My opinion is synthetic oils such as the Yamaha product can be safely left in the instrument with an expectation that they will be unchanged and fit for purpose when you next come to play.

Changing to a different oil may hold issues when making a change. As a rule of thumb, the more expensive and the more pure the oil the better.

My own personal choice is blue juice. I consider it a good balance between performance and price. I have never had any issues with leaving blue juice on the valves for many days.

When it comes to choice of viscosity, the tighter the valves the thinner the oil should be. Yamaha valves are among the tightest in production and the Yamaha oil is a thin oil and is therefore the correct choice for these instruments.

So where we are is this, for most oils it is wiser to oil immediately before playing, whereas with the most modern synthetic oils such as the Yamaha oil, it will make no difference to the playability of the instrument if instead you oil at the end of playing.

[Kehaulani 0]

Here:
Dale Proctor:
"Typically when a trumpet is new, it’s best to oil the valves frequently because of the tighter fit in the bore, and wiping them down before re-oiling is a good idea, too. After they wear in a bit, I don’t think they will need oiling quite as much, but oiling a little too much is better than not enough."

I periodically pour oil down my lead pipe and blow it through the horn. Then fuggetaboutit.

Been doing it this was for half a century.

[Dr GO]

@J-Jericho said in Oiling trumpet:

I've said this before: I always oil valves before and after playing. Same for Amado water keys. Also, I floss and brush my teeth before playing.

OMG! I have been doing it so wrong all these years! I have been flossing my trumpet and oiling my teeth. No wonder I keep biting my tongue!

[Dr GO]

Here is what AI says:

When oiling trumpet valves, the key is to use a specialized "valve oil" with a proper viscosity, applying only a few drops on each side of the valve piston, ensuring it coats the moving parts without being excessive, as too much oil can slow down the valve action and attract dirt; it's generally recommended to oil your valves a few times a week or when they feel sluggish, and to always clean the valves regularly to prevent buildup.

So if using artificial oil, it MUST be true.

[Dr GO]

How you use the valve oil depends on 1) the oil you choose 2) tightness of the valves in the casing:

SPEED: The most important quality in a valve oil is its ability to promote speed by reducing friction, but the oil also causes some resistance of its own. This measured resistance is called viscosity. Musicians seeking a "thin" oil are simply looking for a low viscosity oil. Viscosities of different oils are presented in the table below:

VALVE OIL VISCOSITY CHART COMPARISONS:
Products - Viscosity (cSt)
WATER - 1.00
MINERAL SPIRITS - 1.34
CLARK TERRY - 1.83
BENGE - 1.99
BLUE JUICE - 1.99
PLAYERS - 2.15
JUPITER - 2.20
ROCHE-THOMAS - 2.31
HOLTON - 2.38
HYBRID 141-A7 - 3.02
PRO-OIL RED - 3.61
SPACE FILLER II - 3.72
AL CASS - 3.73
PRO-OIL BLUE - 3.80
SPACE FILLER I - 5.10
SLIDE (for trombones) - 5.12
ALISYN - 7.59

ENDURANCE: Represents the oil's ability to maintain a fast and smooth valve action over many hours despite playing conditions. This characteristic is very difficult to develop in an oil without compromising speed because endurance is the end result of a complex series of interrelated properties and conditions: evaporation rate, film strength, surface tension, water solubility, and valve cleanliness.

Evaporation rate:
In most student and mid-line horns, a valve oil that evaporates to < 40% of the original oil remains on the valves will begin to hesitate unpredictably.

For higher end horns (clean and very tight valves), the slowdown is much sooner and sudden seizing of a valve is more common.

Evaporation rate table below, lists the percent of oil remaining on a surface as a function of time at room temperature. This does NOT reflect that a given valve oil will last the number of days shown, but rather the percentage of oil remaining after a given period of time. Unfortunately, as evaporation occurs, the lighter oil content diminishes until only the slow heavy oil remains on the valves. Experiments back in 1976 proved this.

EVAPORATION RATE TABLE
(PERCENT REMAINING VERSUS TIME) Products Vis.(cSt) 19 hrs 48 hrs 72 hrs 96 hrs 120 hrs
WATER 1.00 - 0%
MINERAL SPIRITS 1.34 - 0%
CLARK TERRY 1.83 - 16% - 7% - 6% - 0%
BENGE 1.99 - 35% - 13% - 8% - 5% - 4%
BLUE JUICE 1.99 - 44% - 23% - 17% - 12% - 8%
PLAYERS 2.15 - 44% - 20% - 13% - 8% - 4%
JUPITER 2.20 - 33% - 17% - 15% - 13% - 10%
ROCHE-THOMAS 2.31 - 16% - 13% - 13% - 12% - 11%
HOLTON 2.38 - 25% - 7% - 4% - 0%
HYBRID 141-A7 3.02 - 92% - 75% - 64% - 55% - 46%
PRO-OIL RED 3.61 - 74% - 44% - 33% - 21% - 11%
AL CASS 3.73 - 75% - 48% - 37% - 26% - 16%
PRO-OIL BLUE 3.80 - 77% - 50% - 37% - 25% - 13%
SPACE FILLER I 5.10 - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100%
SLIDE (t-bones) 5.12 - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100%
ALISYN 7.59 - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100%

Endurance also has a factor in the piston as it slides down the valve casing it to rub against the oil film. This movement ruptures the film and allow direct metal/metal contact. In hyper-tight valve assemblies (i.e., Monette and Schilke) oil film rupture is potentially more frequent and disastrous. This is a purely mechanical phenomenon which can only be prevented with an oil having a high film strength. Achieving a high film strength oil within the optimum viscosity range (2.5- 4.0 cSt) is recommended. High film strength gives a smooth, slippery feel when the oil is rubbed rapidly between the fingers. When shaken, an oil with a high film strength will yield bubbles that collapse within 1- 3 seconds. Whereas an oil with poor film strength will tend to entrap air for a much longer time.

[Trumpetb]

@Dr-GO That table is very interesting.

I take the view that while the contents of this table confirms my earlier words that light fractions on cheap oils evaporate first leaving heavier fractions behind which can then result in the valves becoming sluggish, I do not see this happening in my own experience.

For example

I have been using blue juice exclusively for some years.

The table suggests that for blue juice, after 120 hours only 8% will remain. Presumably if the table were true, at 120 hours after oiling, the valves will have become sluggish and need re-oiling or cleaning and re-oiling.

All my instruments apart from my current hack have been packed away into storage with blue juice on the valves. So by now presumably they all should be un-useable.

I have just taken 3 instruments out of storage and tested them:-
a selmer packed away in June of last year that is 8 months or 5808 hours ago
a besson packed away in august last year that is 6 months or 4356 hours ago
a different besson packed away a week ago that is 168 hours ago.

If the contents of this table were correct and reliable then none of these instruments should be playable by now, the blue juice on the valves should be either dry or acting like some kind of gum.

Instead all of the instruments tested had lightning fast valves, the oil is fresh and they are all very playable.

I would gig them immediately after being lifted out of storage with no need for any preparation or maintenance. I would give them a few drops of oil probably.

I have never seen any problems with valves and I have used several kinds of valve oils.

I have even used a white oil on valves and was surprised when I took an instrument out of storage where it had remained oiled and untouched for 3 years, that is 52560 hours.

The instrument was undisturbed in all that time.

If this table were correct the valves should have been either gummed up solid or grinding or stuck.

Instead the valves were swift and sweet as though oiled the day before, the oil was still fresh on the valves and working perfectly.

I have argued many times with players who insist that old instruments are unplayable the valves on them are always sluggish or sticky.

I have never had any such problems.

If the old instruments were really so bad why did Louis, Dizzy, Doc, and the rest never complain about them.

If I were uncharitable I might ask, what are modern players doing to make their instruments so unplayable.

[J. Jericho]

When I bought my Yamaha YFH731 flugelhorn, The valves would invariably stick after a bit of playing. I would remove the valves, wipe them down, and wipe the inside of the casings as well with paper towels. There would always be dark gray stains on the paper towels, indicating piston/bore wear. I would then flush both with valve oil to the point of the oil dripping off/out of their respective parts. I would have to repeat this once or twice a day for 3 - 4 months. Then one day, presto magico!, the valves worked absolutely perfectly, and they've been that way ever since.

[Trumpetb]

An excellent anecdote J. Jericho allow me to attempt to explain this behavior and what happened.

First of all, all surfaces contain defects, even polished glass contain micro scratches, often only revealed under a scanning electron microscope.

The micro scratches hold oil and help the oil cling to the surface. Many manufacturers including car engine manufacturers and musical instrument manufacturers score the metal surfaces of pistons or the piston chambers to encourage oil to stick to the surface of the piston.

Car manufacturers score the piston bores, trumpet manufacturers score the valves.

Now, when an instrument is not correctly maintained residues of old dirt, old green sludge from lack of maintenance, and old surface scrapings from lack of lubrication in the past, become embedded in the surfaces of the valves and the micro scratches present on them.

These residues become hardened over time and build up.

When the instrument came to you it was clearly affected by this problem.

These hardened residues can be removed by a competent tech either by solvent or by ultrasonic cleaning.

Valve oil often contains solvent additives that are intended to prevent sludge build up. They can however soften existing sludges built up in the past and I think this is what was happening here.

Your excellent cleaning regime plus adding copious amounts of fresh oil allowed the solvents in the oil to attack the built up and hardened sludge sitting in the micro scratches on the surfaces of the piston valves and the surfaces of the chambers they run in.

Your anecdote shows the high quality of your maintenance regime and also illustrates the invisible harm that poor maintenance brings to all instruments.

I hope other players can learn from your experience and also perhaps they might learn your excellent approach to maintenance

Thank you for your very valuable anecdote and explanation.

[Trumpetb]

I feel there is a need to explain a seeming issue between the table shown by Dr GO and my personal anecdotal results, and in so doing close off a loose end in the story of valve oils.

It would appear that either the table is wrong or I am wrong. How can it be possible that the test results of Blue Juice indicate that it will evaporate to 8% of its volume in 120 hours and yet no such rapid evaporation is detected in 5808 hours when it sits in an instrument that is open to the air.

Both surely cannot be right.

I would argue that in fact both can be correct, and this is due to a combination of the properties of oil and the circumstances in which it is used.

We need to understand something called vapor pressure for part of the answer to this conundrum.

Different volatile liquids such as gasoline or paraffin evaporate at different rates. The higher the rate of evaporation the more volatile the liquid is and the higher the vapor pressure is.

A heavy oil will have low vapor pressure and a light oil will have a high vapor pressure.

This explains why there are different results for evaporation rates of different oils in the table.

Looking at the table again, Mineral Spirits have a higher vapor pressure than Clark Terry. This is shown by the Clark Terry taking longer to evaporate than Mineral Spirits.

I am confident that the entries for all the products are probably correct where the products are left to evaporate freely in the open air.

I have however seen valve oils last for many years in their bottles with no reduction in volume if the bottle is unopened.

The air space above the oil quickly becomes saturated by the evaporates and no more evaporation can happen until the bottle is opened.

In an instrument the oil sitting on valves in the valve block is not open to the air. It sits in effectively a sealed chamber between valve and valve block in a similar manner to oil in a sealed bottle. This slows the evaporation of the oil to almost nothing and explains why valves lubricated with oil are still operative many months or even years later.

I hope this helps clarify what is happening in the valve block of an instrument in storage and resolves an otherwise apparent illogical disparity.

[J. Jericho]

@Trumpetb Just for the record, I purchased my Yamaha YFH-731 new; there was no residue from previous use. When I experienced the sticking valves, I immediately recognized the cause and expected that there would be a period of time that I would have to remove the particles that wore off the adjacent surfaces. Having experienced other manufacturers' valve fit on hew horns (particularly Bach, which always worked perfectly from moment one), I hadn't anticipated the long break-in time for the Yamaha. I understand that Yamaha uses extremely close tolerances and that sticking valves on new horns from them is not uncommon.

[Trumpetb]

@J-Jericho My mistake I thought the instrument came to you from a prior user.

Non the less your maintenance regime is excellent and proved its worth.

I do understand that breaking in a new horn can be problematic.

I do see however a great similarity with both of our methods of breaking in a problematic horn.

The method is always the same. Clean the valves clean the valve block lubricate the valves. Keep it clean keep it well lubricated.

[gregco]

Back in my fledgling trumpet playing days of the 1960s, I remember valve oil (Holton, I think) coming in glass bottles with metal screw-on tops. A loop of pipecleaner-like wicking material was riveted to the inside of the top and spent most of its life submerged in the closed bottle. When you unscrewed the top and pulled the oil-saturated wick out through the narrow neck of the bottle, any excess oil was wrung from the wick, leaving it wet with oil, but not dripping.

Even in low lit bandstand conditions, it was quite easy to swab a thin and consistent coating of oil on all sides of the valve contact surfaces -- no dripping, no valve twisting needed, no wondering if drops of oil were staying where you put them while you reassembled the horn.

I remember this as a very efficient, elegant, and easy oil delivery system. Is anything like this available now? Does anyone know about when oil in wick or swab type bottles disappeared?

Does anyone really prefer drop bottles to this (other than oil makers going for the cheapest possible packaging)?

[Kehaulani 0]

If the valves stick, wash them, remove all of the previous oil, and reoil with a different oil.

There's not that much difference, practically speaking, in oils as some may want you to believe.

I have, for half a century, just put oil in my leadpipe and blown it through. Had many horns, never had sticky valves.

Matter of fact, for a couple of years, I used a mix of white kerosene and 3andOne oil.

No need to micro-analyse this. Just get an oil that works for you and fuhgeddaboudit.