What Does The Tongue Do When The Trumpet Is Played

BigDub

@Dr-Mark said in What Does The Tongue Do When The Trumpet Is Played:

@BigDub said in What Does The Tongue Do When The Trumpet Is Played:

When I said you don’t have to think to breathe, I meant in your normal daily activities. It is an unconscious activity. Not, however, while playing trumpet. Yes. I knew that.

OOPS! My bad. That's me once again not putting my common sense in gear.

Maybe it’s just a Dr kind of thing. They read the first few words and boom, the brain is working on solving the problem....

A Former User

@BigDub said in What Does The Tongue Do When The Trumpet Is Played:

They read the first few words and boom, the brain is working on solving the problem....

Guilty as charged

Kujo20

@Dr-Mark said in What Does The Tongue Do When The Trumpet Is Played:

@Kehaulani said in What Does The Tongue Do When The Trumpet Is Played:

Then there's the question about using a "Doodle-tongue", or no tongue, in jazz articulations.

Regardless of the articulation, the tongue should stay loose and flexible.

This I why I always struggled with double and triple tongue techniques.

Without actually playing an instrument, I find it easy to relax and double/triple tongue.... but once the buzzing starts, it gets harder to relax and play it correctly.

Is this a state of mind kind of thing, or a lack of muscular development, or...?

Semi related issue...the same is true with circular breathing for me. Piece of cake without playing the horn - increased difficulty once buzzing begins.

BigDub

At no time does my tongue leave my mouth nor detach itself from the host in question.
On a similar, but barely that, topic- my Father used to be able to form his tongue into a tube shape and actually whistle through it. He was not able to do that while playing the trumpet, which he never got the chance to learn.

A Former User

@Kujo20 said in What Does The Tongue Do When The Trumpet Is Played:

Without actually playing an instrument, I find it easy to relax and double/triple tongue.... but once the buzzing starts, it gets harder to relax and play it correctly.
Is this a state of mind kind of thing, or a lack of muscular development, or...?
Semi related issue...the same is true with circular breathing for me. Piece of cake without playing the horn - increased difficulty once buzzing begins.

Hi Kujo20,
Ask yourself, "Why is there a difference?"
Here's something that might help. A lot of trumpet ills can be dealt with by practicing "softly, no joke"
I know it sounds silly but when we play soft, we can detect things a lot easier and as a result work on things better at a low volume. Just an idea, first verbalize double tonguing. Next, put the horn to the lips and do the same thing but do it nice and soft.
Try this for a couple of weeks and see if it takes. I suggest keeping it simple. First double tongue "softly" a single pitch while keeping the tongue loose and nimble. Once this is under your belt. Double tongue the C major scale up and down. Begin with 4 articulations per note and once you're comfortable, go to two articulations per note and finally, one articulation per note. The idea of a loose but nimble tongue is not a new idea. In Prelude to Brass Playing pg. 26, Mendez describes the tongue as a thin, pointed rapier that will dart, flick-easily, lightly and lightening-like; up and down, not to- and- fro. Notice the words "easily and lightly".
With just about anything, it will take time but if you focus and above all play softly when you double tongue, you'll be amazed. The secret? Do the progression as I described (4,2,1) everyday and do it soft. See you on this topic in two weeks!
Also, don't stiffen up when you run into coordination issues between your fingers and your tongue. When you do run into coordination issues, slow down and play soft.
Good Luck!

A Former User

@Kujo20 said in What Does The Tongue Do When The Trumpet Is Played:

Semi related issue...the same is true with circular breathing for me. Piece of cake without playing the horn - increased difficulty once buzzing begins.

Sometimes we freak out and tighten up when we have to do something we're not too good at. When done several times, it becomes second nature to tighten up when involved with the behavior (circle breathing). Just relax, breath in like a yawn, and work on circle breathing at a soft volume. Remember, if Kenny G can circle breath, you can too!

N1684T

@Dr-Mark said in What Does The Tongue Do When The Trumpet Is Played:

They read the first few words and boom, the brain is working on solving the problem....

This can be a mechanic thing too. Or just a man thing as my girlfriend points out. She starts out talking about a problem, wondering about it and trying to understand it, and my simple "man brain" tries to solve it;)

A Former User

@N1684T said in What Does The Tongue Do When The Trumpet Is Played:

my simple "man brain" tries to solve it;)

So you were trying to solve it by using manswers?

BigDub

@N1684T said in What Does The Tongue Do When The Trumpet Is Played:

@Dr-Mark said in What Does The Tongue Do When The Trumpet Is Played:

They read the first few words and boom, the brain is working on solving the problem....

This can be a mechanic thing too. Or just a man thing as my girlfriend points out. She starts out talking about a problem, wondering about it and trying to understand it, and my simple "man brain" tries to solve it;)

Yeah. Sometimes you just have to shut up and listen, later you say, "uh, huh, uh huh, right, I know. Uh, huh."
They know there’s no solution. It’s just how they want to deal with it, to just discuss it.

Vulgano Brother

David Hickman stated that our tongue is in the right position if we can flutter tongue it. Hard to do on high g.

A Former User

Hi VB,
I never thought of Hickman's idea from that perspective but after trying it, it seems to be true. Yep, hard to flutter tongue when the aperture is the size of a sewing thread.

N1684T

@Dr-Mark said in What Does The Tongue Do When The Trumpet Is Played:

So you were trying to solve it by using manswers?

More power! AUUUGGHHHH!

I miss Tim Allen and tool Time;)

Dr GO

@Dr-Mark said in What Does The Tongue Do When The Trumpet Is Played:

Hi VB,
Yep, hard to flutter tongue when the aperture is the size of a sewing thread.

I have no trouble doing this on high G. Perhaps I am still able to thread the eye of the needle. Or perhaps since I am never thinking of the tongue all hums along like a Singer Sewing machine.

GeorgeB

@Dr-Mark said in What Does The Tongue Do When The Trumpet Is Played:

Hi Kehaulani,
You mentioned anchor-tongue players. Many might not know what that is so here's a snippet from blackwellstrumpetbasics.com;
"The tongue resting behind the bottom teeth is what’s referred to as the “anchor.” While playing with an Anchor-Tongue set, the tip of the tongue remains set behind the bottom teeth during most normal playing as dictated by the musician’s technical development. Contrary to what the name may imply, the front of the tongue is not forcibly “held down” or “pressed in,” but rather, when learned, more “floating” behind the bottom teeth. You can get a good feel for this by pronouncing the “eau” part of the world “beautiful.”

My intentions are to use the anchor tongue method but after reading this thread I discovered that my tongue actually floats behind the bottom teeth.

A Former User

@Dr-GO said in What Does The Tongue Do When The Trumpet Is Played:

I have no trouble doing this on high G.

Paging Dr-GO, Dr. Curly, Dr. Larry
Paging Dr-Go, Dr. Curly. Dr. Larry
OOPS, I think we may have a definition problem. Are you calling high G, the G that sits on the staff or G above high C? I'm in reference to G above high C.
I would think that most people that can double tongue, can double tongue the G that sits on the staff. Of course we know the troubles that can arise when I think.
Remember the violin bow and the trumpet bell? I know, I know, Don't go there.

Dr GO

And the Evidence is In:

Med Probl Perform Art. 2017 Dec;32(4):201-208. doi: 10.21091/mppa.2017.4038.
Fundamental Tongue Motions for Trumpet Playing: A Study Using Cine Magnetic Resonance Imaging (Cine MRI).
Furuhashi H1, Chikui T, Inadomi D, Shiraishi T, Yoshiura K.
Author information
1
Dep. of Oral and Maxillofacial Radiology, Kyushu University Hospital, 3-1-1 Maidashi, Higashi-ku, Fukuoka 812-8582, Japan. Tel +81 92 642 6407, fax +81 92 642 6410. furuhashi@rad.dent.kyushu-u.ac.jp.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
Though the motions of structures outside the mouth in trumpet performance have been reported, the dynamics of intraoral structures remain unelucidated. This study explored the tongue's movement in trumpet playing using cine magnetic resonance imaging (cine MRI) and demonstrated the effects of intraoral anatomical structures on changes in pitch and dynamics.

METHODS:
Cine MRI was applied to 18 trumpet players, who were divided into two groups (7 beginner, 11 advanced) based on their ability to play a certain high note. They were instructed to play a custom-made MRI-compatible simulated trumpet. Pitch-change tasks and dynamics-change tasks were assigned. The positions of the anatomical points and intraoral areas were identified on outlined images, and the changes associated with each task were evaluated.

RESULTS:
A forward and upward projection of the tongue was observed in the production of higher pitches, and there were no significant differences in all areas. In louder dynamics, a backward and downward bending of the tongue occurred, the tongue area became smaller (p<0.001), and the oral cavity area became larger (p<0.001). No significant differences between beginner and advanced trumpet players were seen in the changes in pitch and dynamics.

CONCLUSION:
It was demonstrated using cine MRI that certain tongue movements were associated with each task. Tongue protrusion in the production of higher pitch and bending in louder dynamics can be rationalized using acoustics theory and the movements of anatomical structures. These findings seem to be consistent regardless of the player's proficiency.

Dr GO

But wait... There's more. Strength and Endurance seem to be more a function of the cheeks and lips. The tongue... Not so much!

Med Probl Perform Art. 2015 Jun;30(2):90-5. doi: 10.21091/mppa.2015.2015.
Facial and Lingual Strength and Endurance in Skilled Trumpet Players.
Potter NL1, Johnson LR, Johnson SE, VanDam M.
Author information
1
Department of Speech & Hearing Sciences, Washington State University Spokane, PO Box 1495, Spokane, WA 99210-1495, USA. Tel 509-368-6894, fax 509-358-7500. nlpotter@wsu.edu.
Abstract
Trumpet players produce and manipulate sound through their instrument by articulating the lips, cheeks, and tongue to create a proper airflow. These sustained muscle contractions may result in increased facial and lingual strength and endurance. The purpose of this study was to determine if adult trumpet players who practice at least 6 hrs/wk differed from adult non-trumpet-playing controls in strength and endurance of the lips, cheeks, and tongue.

METHODS:
This case-control study involved 16 trumpet players, 16 healthy controls balanced for age and sex, and 1 trumpet player 25 years post-Bell's palsy. Strength and endurance of lip, cheek, and tongue muscles were measured using the Iowa Oral Performance Instrument (IOPI Medical, Redmond, WA). Maximum strength was the greatest pressure value of three encouraged trials. Endurance was the length of time the participant was able to sustain 50% of maximum strength.

RESULTS:
The findings indicate that trumpet players had greater facial strength and endurance, which was objectively quantified using commercially available equipment. The trumpet players had greater cheek strength and greater lip endurance than controls. Tongue strength and endurance did not differ between the trumpet players and controls. Tongue strength was negatively associated with age, which is consistent with previous studies. The trumpet player with a history of Bell's palsy had decreased cheek strength and endurance on his affected side compared to his unaffected side, although this difference was comparable to the differences between right and left cheek strength in trumpet players without a history of facial nerve damage.

A Former User

Hot Damned!
While they didn't address how the mandible (unless no significant differences in all areas. "3" lines up from the Conclusion included the mandible) moves with respect to the tongue/pitch of the note, it appears we've been spot on for years now.
The tongue plays a crucial role in pitch. As for a muscular face, just look at us!
I played 7 hours on Friday and on Saturday my face looked like it had been pumping iron. Well actually my face looked more like a large mouth bass but equating it to pumping iron just sounds sexier.
You're the best Dr-GO
This calls for a celebration. Let's pull out the Punch Short de Punch 50 ring guage and light'em up.

Dr GO

@Dr-GO said in What Does The Tongue Do When The Trumpet Is Played:

Department of Speech & Hearing Sciences, Washington State University Spokane, PO.

Just noticed where this research was done! Could Vulgano Brother have been one of the "subjects"? Mwaahaaaaaaaaaaaaa

N1684T

Light em up Dr Mark;)