How Does The Theory You've Learned Apply To Improvising?
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@flugelgirl said in How Does The Theory You've Learned Apply To Improvising?:
I never really had that disconnect when the horn was in my hands - always happened when I sat in a classroom taking notes without it. When teaching Jazz theory to students, I’ve found that it helps them understand if you say “Here’s a chord, now arpegiate it. Play the scales associated with it, see why they work.” It also helps to show them the patters, but make them make up their own improv from the patterns. Helps get rid of that “play your exercises on the bandstand” thing when you promote creativity in lessons.
Hi Flugelgirl,
Yes, I totally agree. But a student can play the notes but not have an appreciation for their application. For example, there are people that can play Coltrane's solo on Giant Steps but not understand "why" it works. You are very fortunate to be excluded from that disconnect. -
@Dr-GO said in How Does The Theory You've Learned Apply To Improvising?:
PERSONALLY, I FIND THIS WHEEL PRODUCED ON BEER COASTERS A REAL PLUS!
Thanks Dr-GO! Glad you like it. The one I use is stained with beer and I use it at least every week. Its the only beer coaster I have that I don't set a beer on. The stain gives it character!
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The answer to your question about how theory is utilized in jazz improvisation is answered by listening to recordings of the jazz masters-Clifford, Miles, Dizzy, Lee Morgan, KD, Woody, Blue Mitchell etc.-that's where you learn concept and application of theory. Without doing that all you are doing is running scales.
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Its a playoff between sounding like something and sounding good. I've recently gotten a piano for my daughter, so I had an opportunity to play some jazz chords and I've found that for the most part they sound good 7's, 2's, 11's 13's you can keep stacking the thirds alternating major minor intervals maybe through in some upper structure triads, maybe revoice them a little and they sound great no doubt about it, but they also sound sort of nebulous and vague.
I prefer to draw on melodic quotes from similar songs or parts of songs, maybe riffs or licks, maybe some rhythmic ideas. The theory sort of helps here, a little recognizing, where a diminished section of a song can be juxtaposed into another situation, with a little transposition.
I feel like starting from scratch with the chords is too difficult to do(well) on the fly, often times coming across as an etude, here it comes Coltrane is going to play this scale then that scale then the other scale. You might as well write a new song.
I'm also not a fan of the Julliard(Miles Davis) approach, those guys are kind of like culture vultures, and aren't really crafting anything new.
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@smoothoperator said in How Does The Theory You've Learned Apply To Improvising?:
I prefer to draw on melodic quotes from similar songs or parts of songs, maybe riffs or licks, maybe some rhythmic ideas.
This concept was a real priority for Miles Davis that I read from his autobiography.
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What on Earth is the “ Julliard (Miles Davis) approach “? Miles was learning bebop as it developed and on the 52nd Street. I could be wrong. bur I don't believe Juilliard even had any Jazz studies when Miles was there. I see no connection between approaches.
BTAIM, for me, there are two approaches. The first, and the way I learned, was to learn to play by ear and then, and only then when you are stuck and need a way out, do you find a solution by analysis. Jazz is an aural art.
Of course, learning a chord's extension notes is important but trumpet, being a solo-line instrument, you could play a solo knowing what the extensions are but play a milk-toast solo of mainly basic fundamental tones. And voicings get increasingly more sophisticated so you must know what the notes with the most impact are.
My second level deals with learning deals with learning voicings, theory, etc. simultaneous with the above. For more advanced voicings and constructions (it starts out easy), I recommend The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine. I still think it's best to be led by your ear but with the increased sophistication in voicings, a good dose of knowledge can't hurt you.
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One thing and then I'll go away. When listening to someone improvise, the playing licks thing is obvious and doesn't work for me. Sticking a lick into this or that key is not inventing on the fly. Also, extended chords sound like extended chords and not music to me. Jazz learned in college sounds like jazz learned in college. As in I learned to play along with chords and play the chord notes and nothing sounds like music. Chord progressions sound like chord progressions, not like music. For me, music has a melody, rhythm, movement, a progress, a development and an ending. It goes somewhere, it tells a story. Improv furthers that story and builds on it. If it doesn't it is just noodling around on notes that don't clash with what else is going on. Which is what most stuff for decades has sounded like. And then there is the free stuff. Which doesn't sound like music to me.
Now I near someone say, man, you just don't get it. We are pushing boundaries here. Okay. Push away. And people will sit there nodding like they like it. Do they?
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@kehaulani said in How Does The Theory You've Learned Apply To Improvising?:
One doesn't so much forget what one's learned as much as learned it so well, one has internalized the material so that it comes by second nature.BINGO!!!!!
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I'm not much of an improviser. I have always played the music the way it was written, adding a touch here and there when I felt it complimented the melody. But it is always an impulse thing that I probably couldn't play the same way twice.
So my listening tastes lean that way. When someone is playing a beautiful song like What Is This Thing Called Love I want to hear the melody, and enjoy a little nuance here and there. One thing I don't want to hear is a bunch of licks that stray so far from the melody that I forgot the name of the song I was supposed to be listening to.
From what I've been reading in this thread, probably few here would agree with what I just wrote. So shoot me ! -
Certainly agree with you George, I was taken to task when I did not like the Thad Jones solo in April in Paris, starts with Pop goes the Weasel and ends with a series of seemingly unrelated high notes.
Perhaps it is age related, coming up 83.
Regards, Stuart.
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Hey, Stuart, hell we can be taken to task but who cares. We are entitled to our opinion, and they theirs.
So, you are 83. You're only a baby. I'm 84...
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Well, since this thread popped up, I'll relate a recent occurance.
Last Saturday was the first band practice in over a year. Trad jazz. New band. Never met these people before in person.
For a year I've practiced playing from lead sheets and doing improv. Occasionally use backing tracks. But mostly just improvising on the songs. I start in a different key and practice that too.
I wondered how it would all sound when playing with others. The answer? Wow, pretty darn well. The pandemic has given me the time to work on improv in the safety of my own home.
Now I say, "Give me the solo, man!"
Any theory involved in what I did? No. But also I've spent a year listening to a lot of music in this style. So that gets internalized and comes out.
Would it happen if I listened to another style. Yes. Works that way too. Listen, internalize, play and away we go.
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It depends on what you mean by improvising
Is improvising just making stuff up with no original song tune or melody to improvise upon, and never having heard what you are improvising on or is it improvising on a pre-existing melody or tune that you have heard at least once.
Last night I was expected to improvise on the fly with no preparation at all and nothing to improvise from. They would not take a no.
It was improv on vocal hip hop rap beats alone that they made up then and there on the spot that I had never heard before.
It was similar to an experience I had of being expected to improv with a group of amateur drummers who were just making up beats as they went according to how they feel. I had no idea what was coming out next as the rhythm changed from moment to moment.
Improvising where there is no melody no song no tune no track not even an instrument, just vocal hip hop rap beats that they make up as they go is somewhat challenging, you dont even know what to expect - tu tuka tu tuka chu chu tukka tukka and it changes from moment to moment this is not my preferred improv.
Mind reading is not one of my well developed skills.
But I did it anyway under protest, I laid down some improvised licks while they laid down some beats.
How does what I have learned apply to improvising of this kind, I dont think it does at all.
I think it was Miles or was it Dizzy who said "You cant improvise on nothing"
They thought it went well, - I however never left my unhappiness zone.
Or maybe I am just too demanding, or I am not experienced enough in improv.
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It depends on what you mean by theory. If you're listening then hearing ALL around you, then you are applying theory.
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Don't forget, it's not just the changes you need to hear but also the rhythm. If all you have is rhythm then the world of improv is yours to provide a new direction. That makes it all the more fun and inspiring.
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Improvisation is a 360 degree activity. It doesn't have to be, though. We live in a melody/background environment. Nothing wrong with that, I suppose. It's just richer doing the former.
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Thanks guys I shall ponder your words
