Proper Embouchure?

[55Yr Comback]

Hello All!
WHEN YOU PLAY…..
Do you form an embouchure by firming your corners, flexing your lips against your teeth in a relaxed fashion & in turn, create a concise steady air stream through a small aperture into the trumpet, & then just rely on the trumpet itself to provide feed back (oscillation, standing wave, etc) to make the lips vibrate to create sound?
OR
Do you form an embouchure by firming your corners, flexing your lips against your teeth in a relaxed fashion & then purposely create a buzz with the lips, & in turn buzz through a small aperture into the trumpet itself, & not just rely only on the trumpet to provide feed back (oscillation, standing wave, etc) to the lips to make a sound?

[Shifty]

@55Yr-Comback
Option 1 for me. Option 2 makes a sound like a duck being tortured.

Some folks like to lip buzz (sans mouthpiece) to get their blood flowing (I'm incapable). Some folks like to buzz the mouthpiece as an embouchure exercise. Some put the mouthpiece into the leadpipe (only) or into a Warburton "buzzard" or similar device (https://warburton-usa.com/products/the-buzzard).

But only Option 1 is playing the trumpet and is, IMHO, the way to go for making music. You'll probably hear some alternative views here, but they won't try to chop your head off for asking like they do on the oTHer forum.

There's a YouTube video out there somewhere in which we demonstrate that Option 1 (without a trumpet attached) produces nada, but slide the mouthpiece into a trumpet while continuing to blow and PRESTO- music happens.

[Dr GO]

Neither. I form an embouchure by firming my upper lips with the facial muscles attaching to the zygomatic arch of the orbits of my eyes. Why? More muscle fibers attach hear distributing force more in more directions, with more insertion sites increasing the efficiency of muscle action while increasing embouchure endurance with more effective distribution of work load.

This also more easily opens the lip aperture resulting in a less resistant airflow.

I am a physician, that taught muscle physiology at a medical school for 27 years. I applied my knowledge of facial muscle anatomy with the physiology of muscle dynamics to come up with this approach, and it has increased my endurance, accuracy and range considerably in doing so over the more "traditional" methods you describe.

[Shifty]

@Dr-GO said in Proper Embouchure?:

Neither. I form an embouchure by firming my upper lips with the facial muscles attaching to the zygomatic arch of the orbits of my eyes. Why? More muscle fibers attach hear distributing force more in more directions, with more insertion sites increasing the efficiency of muscle action while increasing embouchure endurance with more effective distribution of work load.

Methinks perhaps the good Doctor's description may be (although precisely accurate) offered somewhat lingua-in-bucca.

[55Yr Comback]

@Shifty Hello & thanks for the post. But how do you do that>

[55Yr Comback]

@Shifty First one does make more sense

[administrator]

I learned a simple method. Say "m" like your about to say "mickey mouse". Now keep your lips in that position. They should be a bit moist. Now put the mouthpiece to your lips without adjusting anything. Blow.

That's about it. When you breathe, be sure to NOT reset your embouchure. Breathe from the sides of your mouth.

[55Yr Comback]

@administrator Thanks! But two questions though.

1st one....After the MMM, do you firm your corners, bring them slightly in toward center firm against you teeth, & then have your lips firm against your teeth & are your lips just slightly touching? And when I say this, I don't mean rigid or in a stiff manner. In other words, if you measured "firm" for doing that on a 1 to 10 scale, it would be at a 3 the most.

2nd question is... after you've placed the mpc, do you put your tongue through your lips to open your lips slightly, or do you let your air stream open them.

Understand I'm not trying to be technical or mechanical. I just want to know if by doing this, it results in an embouchure that's not loose & sloppy. THANKS!!

[Shifty]

@55Yr-Comback said in Proper Embouchure?:

@administrator Thanks! But two questions though.

1st one....After the MMM, do you firm your corners, bring them slightly in toward center firm against you teeth, & then have your lips firm against your teeth & are your lips just slightly touching? And when I say this, I don't mean rigid or in a stiff manner. In other words, if you measured "firm" for doing that on a 1 to 10 scale, it would be at a 3 the most.

2nd question is... after you've placed the mpc, do you put your tongue through your lips to open your lips slightly, or do you let your air stream open them.

Understand I'm not trying to be technical or mechanical. I just want to know if by doing this, it results in an embouchure that's not loose & sloppy. THANKS!!

Caveat: I'm not an instructor or even a very good player, so take this for what it's worth. I was going to opine that you're overthinking it, but then I started overthinking
it, too.

I'll offer up a video by Charlie Porter. After setting the mouthpiece on his closed lips, he consciously pulls them apart just a bit. I didn't think I did that, but it turns out that
I do (unconsciously).

IMHO, if the lips are truly touching without airflow, then adding airflow could allow the creation of a buzz on just the mouthpiece (or visualizer, in the video). If that buzz already exists with the mouthpiece in the horn before the horn itself starts to respond, you get the dirty articulation that Charlie describes. If you've formed a good embouchure on the mouthpiece alone, it should not buzz when you add airflow. But keep blowing while sliding the mouthpiece into the horn and you should get a
nice tone.

Charlie pokes his tongue out to wet his lips, but I don't think that will keep the lips open if the aperture is closed to start with.

[55Yr Comback]

@Shifty Yeah, I see what you guys are saying. With that in mind, I'll watch the video Thanks!!

[Shifty]

@55Yr-Comback
I hope that video answered the questions that you actually asked. But wait--there's more.

In Charlie's demo, he has his jaw set so that his upper and lower teeth are aligned. He also has the mouthpiece centered vertically (50-50) on his lips. That's a good place to start, but it might not work for you.

Some folks play with overbite or (less likely) underbite. Some play 50-50, while others use higher mouthpiece placement or lower placement. Some even offset horizontally. A lot has to do with your oral and dental structure. There's really no right or wrong if it works for you so, unless you have an instructor, you just have to experiment.

Sometime in the future, you may find this website interesting:
https://wilktone.com/?page_id=5619
From that site:

*Where no obvious reason seems to exist for the adoption of any particular method, it is in order to ask “Why?”.

And if the “experts” provide you too readily with an answer, bear in mind that they may not, in fact, have any clearer understanding of how successfully to perform the task than you do yourself.*

[robertwerntz]

Congratulations on coming back after 55 years if I am interpreting that correctly

Everyone's teeth, jaw and lip structures are different, so I would guess there is not a method that works for everyone

I'm very pragmatic - use what works for you after trying different things. The proof is in the sound - stick with one mid-range note and experiment. Try to find the setting which gives you the sound you like best.

If you can find a setting that gives you a good sound and also seems relaxed to you, you are on the right track

I think people with a thicker lower lip and thinner lower lip tend to make good sounds more easily, but there are hundreds of pros with all kinds of lip structures

I have Musicians Focal Dystonia, and after 40 years of great jazz experiences, nationally and internationally, I cant make a good sound anymore at all - sure miss it, and being part of this discussion board is emotionally healing for me - no worries, tho, the Lord allowed me to experience wonderful things and relationships thaks to the beloved horn - thanx, all

[55Yr Comback]

@robertwerntz Thanks for your advice & I'm sorry to hear that. I wish you well

[gregco]

@robertwerntz Greg Spence has launched a new website/program for dealing with distonia: www.fubrian.com.

I've been a student of his (non-distonia) for several years, and can vouch for him being a straight shooter and a good guy. Check under my username for posts I've made about my experience with him.

I know he has been working with distonia students for several years and claims to have gotten several pro players back on track, as well as many others.

He has a very holistic approach to trumpet training, emphasizing brain retraining. (this fits with his interest in helping with distonia).

I believe he gave a presentation on distonia at the ITG and it is available online.

I have not delved into the distonia program in any detail, but I believe he offers a free assessment of your specific condition.

Greg is NOT a scam and, while he is enthusiastic about his programs, does not use high pressure tactics.

Costs will probably run somewhere between 1/100th and 1/10th of the SCAMMER BROCKMAN'S programs recently mentioned on this board. And I am confident Greg gives refunds if you are not satisfied.

I have no financial or any other interest in Greg's program -- just hope this might be able to help you.

[robertwerntz]

@55Yr-Comback great news thanks! looking him up now - focal dystonia is no fun

[robertwerntz]

@55Yr-Comback thanks so much!

[robertwerntz]

@gregco thanks so very much! will contact Greg!

[gregco]

Hope it helps!
I'll be on a regular Sunday Zoom session with him in about an hour. I'll tell him to watch out for you if I get the chance.
Greg Coughlan

[Kehaulani 0]

@administrator said in Proper Embouchure?:

I learned a simple method. Say "m" like your about to say "mickey mouse". Now keep your lips in that position. They should be a bit moist. Now put the mouthpiece to your lips without adjusting anything. Blow.

This. Don't micro-analyse.

[robertwerntz]

@robertwerntz gregco I contacted Greg and had an asesssment session with him - very impressive thanks for the lead!