Another interesting piece - this "R1M" imitation of some Rudy Muck mouthpiece, which is visible in the 1963 Lignatone catalog
Another interesting piece - this "R1M" imitation of some Rudy Muck mouthpiece, which is visible in the 1963 Lignatone catalog
@zetka said in Amati-Kraslice - the ones we love to hate?:
@ConnDirectorFan All given links contains quite complete and really invaluable material, because even in Amati itself they do not collect those old paper history prospects from communist era, so unfortunately you can not dig any more information about certain model from the old production there. It is very evident, that the export of AMATI musical instruments was very important for the company and the state itself as a source of foreign currency, which was a great need.
That was the goal! I agree with everything you said; their current US distributor has found that Amati have a clean slate every decade or so, leading to discontinuity we see here. The hard-currency export mission outweighed the documentation, it seems, as only two brochures had censorial marks indicating the year...! Amati-Kraslice, 1976 per censorial mark [scans] was one I forgot to include, but it establishes a hard date for obscure variations.
So now it's possible to cross-reference models with the catalogs! There are plenty of oddballs that don't quite conform [mostly early models], but it's now easy to see that the infamous "Conn Director grip ring" basic stencil is the Lignatone 2400 or 2401, later Amati-Kraslice 2440.
Bell garlands vary from the smaller ones on early Consul 2360 and Lignatone/Amati 2404, the Supertone 2503/2543 with a large garland, the flat-rim 2444 often co-labeled Bohland & Fuchs, the roll-past rim Arioso Super B-2580 [like the Buffet/Evette horns made in Germany], etc.
Cornets can be linked to the long-model 1200/B-1037, mid-length 1210/1250, shorter 1900/1910/B-1040, "Wonderphone"/"Connquest" tuning-bell 2551/B-1038, and of course the pocket cornet 200P, later B-1041/ACR-241.
Flugelhorn is usually 226...
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1BqTvh7RmRAXFfp3r60yVpTWDYBpFQ9-r contains a giant collection of scans and photographs of engineering vellum sheets from none other than C. G. Conn Ltd. - sadly only a fraction of the ones ever produced/used, but still useful.
They were scanned on loan from a former UMI employee, hence the Benge/King bits, and there are a few hundred more that are too large for standard tabletop scanners that we're working on...
Why are they usually PDFs? Client wanted PDFs. I redid several as PNG or bitmap at different resolutions where potentially useful.
It's a free-for-all because there is virtually no organization. Google has been performing optical character recognition every time something is uploaded, so if using a Google account, you should be able to search by topic/name/etc. Not perfect, but helpful somewhat.
The folders and subfolders are references to what each container had, so the Black Crate had hanging folders corresponding to sheet numbers, or the Market Day bag had a bunch of loose sheets presented in order, etc.
"Fun" items include official dates when certain designs were discontinued, a trombone date code table, 16A designs from the 1960s that were shelved, subcontracted to Yamaha as the 19A/21A, then became the 16A in 1974, a 25A/25B "Director" which was basically a 77B parts-horn, various Navy compass parts from WW2, a possible Czech spy sending stuff to Amati-Kraslice [kidding about that]...
and some newer catalog/part items as well:
Repair parts: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1eufgahpSJ5qrHajU5hhgybjsw1v8Z0Ku?usp=drive_link
2021: https://amati.cz/images/catalogue-download/amati-catalogue.pdf and https://www.vfcerveny.cz/images/catalogue-download/vfcerveny-cataloque.pdf
@ConnDirectorFan said in Amati-Kraslice - the ones we love to hate?:
@ConnDirectorFan Most of the items here are on Horn-u-Copia in the Library, so I linked their OneDrive PDFs here for the smallest file size [and the original Google Drive scans where applicable]:
https://horn-u-copia.net/library.shtml
Amati-Kraslice piston, ca. 1970s-1980s [scans]
Amati-Kraslice rotary, ca. 1970s-1980s [scans]
Amati-Kraslice, ca. 1976 [scans]
Amati-Kraslice, ca. 1968-1970 [scans]
Amati-Kraslice, 1976 per censorial mark [scans]
Amati-Kraslice, ca. 1967 [scans]
Artia/Amati-Kraslice piston trumpets, ca. 1967 [scans]
Lignatone/Amati-Kraslice, ca. 1964 [scans]
Lignatone 351/Amati-Kraslice, ca. 1953
Lignatone 352/Amati-Kraslice, ca. 1954 [scans]
Ligna Spanish export [Lignatone]/Amati-Kraslice, ca. 1949 [scans] courtesy Gerard Westerhof
@ConnDirectorFan Most of the items here are on Horn-u-Copia in the Library, so I linked their OneDrive PDFs here for the smallest file size [and the original Google Drive scans where applicable] - hover over the text to see the link:
https://horn-u-copia.net/library.shtml
Amati-Kraslice piston, ca. 1970s-1980s [scans]
Amati-Kraslice rotary, ca. 1970s-1980s [scans]
Amati-Kraslice, 1976 per censorial mark [scans]
Amati-Kraslice, ca. 1976 [scans]
Amati-Kraslice, ca. 1968-1970 [scans]
Amati-Kraslice, ca. 1967 [scans]
Artia/Amati-Kraslice piston trumpets, ca. 1967 [scans]
Lignatone/Amati-Kraslice, ca. 1964 [scans]
Lignatone 351/Amati-Kraslice, ca. 1953
Lignatone 352/Amati-Kraslice, ca. 1954 [scans] - has a censorial mark indicating 1954
Ligna Spanish export [Lignatone]/Amati-Kraslice, ca. 1949 [scans] courtesy Gerard Westerhof
and a 1975 EMI/Rosetti catalog showing Corton brasswinds and more
And here's another one - ca. 1991 production ACR-241 pocket cornet with tuning shanks, though the serial itself makes me wonder if the parts were originally manufactured much earlier...
@zetka Well I'm very glad to have a Czech speaker to help demystify some of this! In the last few years [really in the last 8 months] we were able to get a large collection of Amati catalogs ranging from the 1960s to 1980s, and while they probably aren't a complete set, they definitely shed light on what was insanely confusing for so long. I'll add the links momentarily
@havetrumpet I was told the same...things about how to care for it/break it in, but honestly it was moot. It took a lot more work than just that to get the Jupiter valves working. I bought it using insurance money [and the repairs were under warranty] so I can't complain too much, but the demo I had played years prior had been set up better.
The Liberty just feels easier to play - the blow isn't significantly different [I don't really notice a difference since they're not as extreme as Conn 6B and 5A], but the response is quicker. The Ingram is a bit more predictable, more balanced, but the Liberty's brightness and high register zing is hard to beat! On the other hand, I've been using an Amati-Kraslice OEM "Arioso Super" [model B-2580] a lot more, too.
The Arioso is a bit mechanically clunky but relatively open, ML-ML+ ish
Hopefully that answers the question [best way I can put it]
@havetrumpet Interesting; thanks. The only 1600 series Jupiter I've played is the 1600I Roger Ingram trumpet. Nice player, great high register and projection, but the horn brand-new came with gritty valves [good thing it was insurance money paying!] that hung up a lot. After getting them lapped and cleaned, they work all right - I prefer my King Liberty or Conn 61B a bit more at times for their brightness, but the 1600I isn't too bad.
@havetrumpet Is Harmonie made with their own valves, or do they source from another maker? I'll see if I can find anything on them
@conndirectorfan Lucked out and found a rarity with its original inspection/warranty slip! This is model AFH-201, the standard flugelhorn, which appears to be from March 1998 [1.3.98 - note 15 Oct 99 above], serial 865738. Note the older style milled caps and buttons and plastic case with older-style latches and "smoother" exterior than the later molded cases.
For reference, 862346 is an ATR-303 Festival type dated Jan 1994 - hard to say how the serials all line up, but this puts the reset around the 1990s...so far...
@conndirectorfan For the sake of a starting place, I estimate [assume] they started their main sequence around 1950. Some of the features here appear on that Toneking based on the same design, likely one of the last with that name [due to Keilwerth lawsuit, which Amati lost in 1955].
The 500000s appear with direct references to the 1970s - the York 76 Bicentennial specifically. Let's just establish this hypothetical range for their brasses:
0-500000 - 1950-1970, so 250000 instruments per decade, 125000 per 5 years - I don't think they started right in 1950, but the only catalog with pre-war-looking models is that Ligna a.s. catalog...
This seems to line up with some attested purchase dates, though Amati is the kind of thing handled in decades...I wish I knew when they introduced that Microbor looking piston.
0-125000 - 1950-1955 [roughly]
125000-250000 - 1955-1960
250000-375000 - 1960-1965
375000-500000 - 1965-1970
500000-625000 - 1970-1975
625000-750000 - 1975-1980
750000-875000 - 1980-1985
875000-1000000 - 1985-1990*
I've never seen instruments in the 900000 series, but I've seen plenty with leading zeros [0xxxxx] of some length, making me wonder if they rolled over and dropped the initial 1 to keep things 6 digits?
so
875000-000000 - 1985-1990
000000-125000 - 1990-1995
125000-250000 - 1995-2000
250000-375000 - 2000-2005*
I've not seen new Amatis past the high 200000s yet, and this doesn't reflect production inconsistencies or the Meister series at all...! Woodwinds are a different mess entirely; apparently they continued from Keilwerth serials at first...
@gloucestre Those look great! I had a strange flugel-shank mouthpiece that matches your description and looked like the one there; I thought it might be Amati-Kraslice since the Small Morse flugel-sized receivers on cornets apparently weren't accidental...!
The flat folded-over rim looks like that of the B&F-Amatis that appear for a while; the rolled tube edges, pinky hook, and the serial look like "older" Amatis I've seen. The stamp above the serial might be some production code but I can't make it out. Unfortunately it's hard to pinpoint an exact year, but it'd wager it's late 1950s.
@gloucestre
Photos still aren't loading - I'm not sure what you're using [looks like Google Drive or Photos?] but the permissions or links aren't right. I tried several proxies and archiving tools but they all have the same general effect.
The "Made in Western-Germany" pieces, like Apollo, Lyle, etc? I read a reference that they were early Lausmann products [they started in 1945-6] but don't have access to it anymore
Who made the valves for Bohm-Meinl, Gebr. Alexander piston brasses, "German Yorks"? I was always under the impression that those horns, such as York 75, York National, etc. marked Germany were from Bohm-Meinl. But the piston type varies...sometimes it's a Blessing-style piston, other times a simple exposed-spring with a flat washer, and the valve guide is just a screw in the piston surface [like the cheaper Weltklangs and others]. Sometimes the spring is outside, but with a larger center post and a smaller washer. The most complicated
B&M serial? The photos are bad but the stamp has small font, and a bit jagged - https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rudy-muck-trumpet-158047/402628943279 - the 7M Balanced vs. the Buffet-Crampon horns with 6-digit serials, since 4-digit is usually Modl
This 32M looks like the low-end B&Ms, with the odd sculpted bit in the middle of the valve casing - https://reverb.com/item/20865498-vintage-rudy-muck-trumpet-32m-mkiii-with-vintage-case
For comparison...balanced horn with B&M looking serial? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-c-1970-Buffet-American-Trumpet-X-Large-Bore-Great-Lead-Horn/143903779629
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Evette-Schaeffer-American-trumpet-for-restoration/233841180190
Modl serial? The casings and stamp look like it - https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rudy-muck-trumpet/224233748499
This guy looks like some late 1950s A. R. Huttls I've seen, with the stamp near the bottom cap, beefy casings, trombone waterkeys, and bell profile - http://www.rudymuck.info/images/5ccombo.jpg
This 32M is from Amati-Kraslice! http://veryrarebrass.com/rudy-muck-32-m-dallas-london-vintage-pro-level-b-flat-trumpet-very-rare-horn/
@oldschooleuph such as this? https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/742529 or http://www.antonius.cz/en/productdisplay/bb-trubka-amati-consul-vk1735 or https://www.odkarla.cz/trubka-consul-amati-kraslice [Fotogalerie]
https://www.antonius.cz/sites/default/files/tr_vk1735.jpg
I remember seeing [what I considered] Art Deco features on many of the pre-100000 horns, and this distinct pinky hook appears on some co-branded horns like B&F: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Amati-Kraslice-B-Trompete-Versilbert/124284915476
For reference, the few Legrand photos I have on hand: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1G2KgnW7PlawnfyMzwRacV58KYTmYNwHY?usp=sharing - the U looks like what I've seen stamped on older-looking horns [and visible letters near serials don't appear too often on Amatis]
B&F co-branded horns appear into the 600000s at least
@gloucestre Upload them to a Google Drive folder [then send link] or hosting service like Flickr, Photobucket, etc - that might be the best way. That serial is low enough that it might have Riedl/etc features carried over...which leads to...