This is my attempt at piecing together a chronology of Europe's infamous band instrument manufacturer. I'll have to go back through later, but this is a start. I hate to admit that I own more of these than I should, partly due to my fascination with their designs inspired by Conn, ranging from simple aesthetics like the "grip rings" on the valve casings, to the design of pistons similar to the barrel-spring type in Victors and Connstellations.

While they still exist [since 2012 as a division of Geneva Group UK], they don't have much in the way of records when I inquire about past models, and they've mentioned their serial "list" is vague before the 1980s, when they implemented computer record keeping. There isn't much in the way of English-language material, but Brasspedia details the founding of Amati-Kraslice pretty well. Unfortunately the photos I saved sometimes went missing, and the early horns are a hodgepodge of parts and suppliers. It doesn't help that there are a few sequences in use that often overlap...

October 17, 1945 - Amati cooperative of musical instrument manufacturing is established, with representatives meeting in the cafeteria of the F. X. Hüller company. The co-op also consists of "a total of 322 [firms] producing musical instruments...Josef Glassl, Bohland & Fuchs, Julius Keilwerth, A. K. Hüttl, Franz Michl and Kohlerts Söhne" - some of these trademarks will be used alongside the Amati name for several years

1948 - Communists take full control of Czechoslovakia, nationalizing industries and continuing consolidation, which was complete by 1952

This interesting bit was in a HUC thread until it disappeared, wit this summary on the Amati page. Keilwerth family members were retained to assist with operation - "Max was retained by Amati to consult on the integration of the cooperative. He remained at Amati until 1951. He would have had connections to all of the former German suppliers and to new firms run by his former workers, and could easily have subcontracted work there - particularly in East Germany", explaining the occasional Amati trumpet with Made in Germany on the top of the receiver, in the manner of really early Böhm-Meinl trumpets, as well as a distinctive type of valve block used early on.
In other cases, the Amati name appears on a wide range of prewar designs, likely just finished instruments made with leftover parts. Pigtail crook peashooter trumpets, rimless "Vocabell" peashooters, octagonal bell trumpets, all sorts of others...

Amati kept using its constituent firms' trademarks, and in the case of Keilwerth, continued making saxophones in the same sequence with no changes. Keilwerth argued that their family owned these trademarks, but Amati countered in stating they were the "legal" corporate successors, who inherited the rights to the name. In 1955, the European Court in The Hague ruled in favor of Keilwerth. Hüttl was also awarded compensation for what Amati had seized in 1945-6. I don't know how Karl Fuchs of B&F fared, since the B&F name appears on Amati horns into the 1980s, and Fuchs died in Germany in the 1960s...

Meanwhile, Czechoslovakia was re-industrializing under a Five-Year Plan, on the Soviet model. That said, the state managers knew that musical instrument export was a great way to get much-needed hard currency [Dennis Gazarek, Elmar here, and a number of others echoed that], and they could build upon the network of small craftsmen building from parts milled out in the central shop as "showpiece" horns, called "Meister Trompete" in a 1970s-80s catalog. This was a continuation of the earlier model, just under state control. I thin they began churning out their infamous designs by the end of that plan.

While musical instrument manufacturing was prioritized, Amati quality still suffered under the command economy. I recall Elmar mentioned the "brass" used contained more impurities than Western brass, since it had been recycled from Soviet artillery shell casings containing high amounts of lead, primed with mercury [!!!]. The Soviets didn't see a problem with that [look at the tolerances on their weapons in general], and Amati instruments probably have half their issues due to the materials used.

The serial numbers appear in two major sequences: I call the first the "mass-produced" series, and the second "Meister series". The first is recognizable by the large numbers stamped on the left-hand side of the 2nd valve casing, perpendicular to the cap. The Meister series usually has 2-piece valve casings [sometimes with nickel upper sections], a model name indicating an attempt at a pro design, and a small number stamped parallel to the bottom cap of the 2nd valve casing, left-hand side, near the cap.

In some cases, a horn has the mass-produced valve block and serial, but with a second number stamped around the receiver, fitting in the Meister series - my "semi-pro" Arioso Super is one of a few like this. I wonder if they sent these parts out for assembly by trusted, experienced craftsmen [rather than workers slamming parts together en masse - I have a Legrand cornet with bent valve guides, no slide ferrules, and slide legs/tubes not even parallel].

ca 1953 - Amati is retooled for mass production, introducing new designs which they will make for 40 years
The infamous trumpet with "Conn Director valve grip rings" appears here, and the existence of models with Toneking on the bell means that they were made prior to Keilwerth winning the lawsuit in 1955

The earliest "mass produced" model I found was a Grafton trumpet, made for Dallas of London, serial 519. It was purchased used in 1963, and it had apparently been around for "some time" before.
My list mixes the ones with letter prefixes [which appear to have East German parts and are rare] so I'll have to go back and prune that.

These continue until the 800000 series. I presume they hit 999999 and started over [000019 is the earliest I can find of that sort], still in that sequence today.

They occasionally tried to make horns that weren't complete junk - the Arioso Supers are particularly gussied-up, with Olds-style 1st and 3rd triggers, nickel slides, reverse tuning slide, a sort of "Italian rim" where the edge of the bell goes over and past the wire a bit [not quite a garland, though the crappy Legrand has one, and several B&F ones have flat rims].

The Meister trumpets appear under names like Consul [which has a 1st valve slide on the left like Nova/Hayes], Festival, Senator, Excelent [sic! they really spelled it that way], etc. These aren't at the level of classic Conn, Bach, Yamaha, etc. but are usually more...stable than their low-end counterparts. These were assigned model numbers in the 1980s, and probably stopped when they ran out of parts in the 1990s or so. I can't find much on them, and it doesn't help that horns marked Czech Republic have serials just below others marked Czechoslovakia of the same model...!

In 2012, Geneva Group UK purchased Amati - they had already sourced components, and it apparently was best to just buy the factory. The newest pro horns apparently are nice [the first they've made to a high level in 80 years...?!] and even have bi-metal bells, something only seen on rare models like the Amati-Kraslice ACR-700 cornet.

@conndirectorfan The embarassingly-bad serial list...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B125S8bNnBMTN1lldHNqMWJJY1U/view?usp=sharing

@conndirectorfan Well, it looks like I'm outside the window for editing...so I guess I have to post again.
These are the piston designs mentioned in the 1970s/80s catalog, visible at https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5-_7UCbLfDqVzNQT3U2NlpYaGM/view [the rotary one is https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5-_7UCbLfDqekN6NlZqU0NiZUk/view]

Type A [or G1] has a rectangular stem, exposed spring, and a round, plastic guide - they appear to be based on B&H Microbor valves
Type B [G2] are bottom-sprung
Type C [G3] are used in Meister trumpets, with a spring barrel that has a long stem attached to barrel bottom - the valve guide is at the bottom of the barrel, and the top has a thin flange

The catalog doesn't mention the Bach/Blessing type pistons that Amati used prior to then, which they reintroduced in the 1990s and still use to this day. The catalog also doesn't mention the Conn type pistons, similar to G3 but with the guide at the top of the barrel [like Conn], with the rod attached to the barrel [unlike Conn], large rolled top flange [unlike either type], which appear most frequently in Musica-Steyr stencils [and even look like Schenkelaars pistons!]. The lower section is identical in both these and the G3 Meister valves, and I've used the lower-end pistons to repair Meister horns.

The other "cheaper" barrel piston

The Bach or Blessing style piston [similar to most modern types]

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1BqTvh7RmRAXFfp3r60yVpTWDYBpFQ9-r contains a giant collection of scans and photographs of engineering vellum sheets from none other than C. G. Conn Ltd. - sadly only a fraction of the ones ever produced/used, but still useful.
They were scanned on loan from a former UMI employee, hence the Benge/King bits, and there are a few hundred more that are too large for standard tabletop scanners that we're working on...
Why are they usually PDFs? Client wanted PDFs. I redid several as PNG or bitmap at different resolutions where potentially useful.

It's a free-for-all because there is virtually no organization. Google has been performing optical character recognition every time something is uploaded, so if using a Google account, you should be able to search by topic/name/etc. Not perfect, but helpful somewhat.
The folders and subfolders are references to what each container had, so the Black Crate had hanging folders corresponding to sheet numbers, or the Market Day bag had a bunch of loose sheets presented in order, etc.

"Fun" items include official dates when certain designs were discontinued, a trombone date code table, 16A designs from the 1960s that were shelved, subcontracted to Yamaha as the 19A/21A, then became the 16A in 1974, a 25A/25B "Director" which was basically a 77B parts-horn, various Navy compass parts from WW2, a possible Czech spy sending stuff to Amati-Kraslice [kidding about that]...

@zetka on a similar note, I found this image [originally taken May 2020] showing the piston from my Musica Steyr cornet [Amati 2551 or B-1038, the Connquest/Wonderphone-inspired model] and an Amati Excelent Super [yes, that is how it was spelled], with G3 Meister pistons.
The barrel is slightly different, with the Musica having the guide notch punched out of the top like Conn and in line with the pin, and the G3 having it molded from the bottom across from the pin. Conn, KHS, and Chinese makers had the pin mounted to the mobile portion of the piston, versus Amati attaching it to the barrel. The Excelent Super was Monel, with the Excelent and other models having Amati's infamous Chromium surface piston.

@Jolter said in Conn & more engineering spec sheet free-for-all:

@ConnDirectorFan That's very cool, has anything more happened to this initiative?

Since there are a lot of duplicates photos, I assume some manual checking and removing of redundancies could be useful, as would categorizing/systemizing the scans further.

In short, yes, though unfortunately not in a meaningful way. Part of it is my ineptitude, part of it is general coordination difficulty, but it will slowly proceed!

I wish it could have more happening! Just like the collection, it's a mess of fits and starts.
Currently I'm waiting on getting larger size prints - the client/owner dropped off a stack of B/C/D-size prints at a local print shop, who claimed they could scan them. Turns out they did absolutely nothing, while I put together an easel of sorts to photograph them. We're all busy otherwise, so coordination has been difficult.

Sorting would definitely be useful. The original objective was "digitize everything so it's not just these fragile sheets", so meaningful organization took a back-seat. Other prints have artifacts due to the scanner [like the wretched RGB-banding when scanning black when in color mode, etc.] so I scanned them in different modes.
Due to the naming convention, often several unique sheets have identical filenames [!!!] since I copied the folder structure of the physical crates themselves...errors and all. When scanning, the new directory caused the app to reset the file name.

Because the client/materials-owner wanted tuba and trombone parts primarily, I basically started entering model numbers into Google Drive, then grabbing the results and downloading. Then terms like "tuba", etc.

I suppose a detailed combing with a script, or even a tool like Agent Ransack or Tenorshare to find true duplicates would be in order. I scanned some items multiple times to ensure everything was captured [due to the consumer-grade flatbed scanner], and would potentially want to stitch them into a single sheet-file.

We wanted to use these to create 3D models of each part in modern software, and this could theoretically be automated given the specs and general shape.

@zetka said in Amati-Kraslice - the ones we love to hate?:

@ConnDirectorFan BTW, it seems that the 7DW was still produced lately, I saw them sold for about 40USD on czech Aukro auction server now
(https://aukro.cz/natrubek-pro-trumpetu-amati-7dw-7057773410 ).
Those are with the bottom shape looking like Yamaha MPCs.

Are they old stock? When I ordered some pieces from the factory in 2020, it was a veritable hodge-podge of pieces made from the 1980s to 2000s. Some of the heavy Yamaha-style pieces were buffed, others with the satin exterior. Amati definitely are not budging when we try ordering now...!

@zetka Thanks for that! Yes, Amati tool marks are a very common defining feature. The single-number pieces are an absolute mystery, and it seems they used pre-war styling until either using up old stock, or deciding it was time to use a new exterior.

I have to wonder if they started using Klier earlier. I've got a bugle that was made on-order in mid-2020, and it came with a 7C that was unlike any of the heavyweight Amati pieces, except the "AMATI 7C" engraving. It was the same thin engraving seen on the heavy pieces. The blank was Bach-style, but the collar was a round bulge, and the exterior was something like some of the vintage Buescher/Elkhart or Martin/Indiana trumpet pieces from around 1910-1920. I'll have to photo that soon...

@Jolter said in Amati-Kraslice - the ones we love to hate?:

@ConnDirectorFan That's very interesting to hear, that JK are now providing their mouthpieces. So they got out of that business altogether, then.

I never saw their 7EW, but I bought a new 7DW when I visited Praha in 2004 or so. It had a wide rim, which was quite flat, a fairly sharp inner bite and a tiny tiny cup in a heavyweight blank. (Not quite megatone-weight but something like that.) I was coming from a Yamaha 11C4/7C and was hoping for just that little push in endurance/range. The honeymoon was nice. Unfortunately my intonation and tone suffered, and this was when I first discovered my lips are too big to be able to play extremely small sizes. I was young and stupid but a senior section member clued me into that my new mouthpiece was not helping my playing.

(The wide rim promoted some bad habits, too, like I used a lot of pressure those days...)

I passed the MP on to a donation drive, instruments for poor students. Hopefully one of them had thin lips...

Their 7DW cornet piece pre-2000s was...interesting. Brighter sound, but not a "screaming lead" by any margin...! It came straight from the factory wrapped in paper, in a newer Amati box with product code A90 7DW and UPC 8 591278 023119...

@zetka said in Amati-Kraslice - the ones we love to hate?:

@ConnDirectorFan BTW, the man on the picture left is a well known trumpet (cornet) player, actor Jiří Jelínek. He was very popular in the 60ies and when Louis Armstrong concerted in Prague in 1965, he performed for him in the Semafor theatre. Link is here .

Very neat - thanks! I've seen references to a "Signatone" [sic - Lignatone] Consul trumpet presented to Armstrong at one point as well.
The 1976 catalog has a center-section pic of Dizzy Gillespie [?!] interestingly enough

Sadly I've never found anything about Amati mouthpieces beyond the pages you see here, and a chart/table showing specifications of trumpets/cornets from the 1980s - it shows the standard mouthpieces included with different models, but it basically is just the 7C/7E...
They never published a mouthpiece catalog on its own that anyone remembers, and the catalogs I've seen barely discuss them. What you see in the links is everything I've ever found...

I'd agree that the rims are flatter than Bach equivalents, though I'd also say they were sometimes very odd - I've encountered 3 or 4 pre-2000 7Cs that have a sharp inner bite, with a rim that slopes downward from there. The rim itself is wide, flat, but slopes down toward the outside! Not especially comfortable.
I've had several other Bach-influenced ones with the same characteristic, except for a few.
I have two 7EW versions, one stamped Czech Republic, the other nothing [just the model]. The model stamp is atrocious, but the rim is extremely flat and broad. The rim bite is not higher than the rest of the rim, and the cup is much tinier and shallower than any 7EW Bach ever made! It's a bit hard to play long-term, but for a useless trick-shot Double High E-flat intro on "Chameleon", it's a neat piece!
The Circe piccolo piece is a bit wide, but still nicely made. It's not nearly as extreme as the 7EW...!
I have photos of the various ones sold, which I'll probably post at some point.

I have the 3 and 10 cornet pieces, copied from Bach as well. They're pretty close and are done quite well. The trumpet 10 has a different rim, but still is decent.

As far as the older ones, I've encountered various "MADE IN / CZECHO / SLOVAKIA" models, some with the pre-war serif stamp, most with the post-war sans-serif stamp. Some have the Ⓐ & number stamp, most do not. These often have wide, flat rims and round rim bite, and while not super distinguished or special, still play okay. At some point these weren't considered good enough, so they started explicitly copying other versions. I think the H2W might be a nod to Meister Hablowetz [Hablawetz also...
Rudy Muck pieces are all over the place, possibly due to the licensing arrangements and just plain inconsistency.

The newer heavyweight ones are another breed entirely. They're consistent, but the designs changed - the 2000s 7EW has a super-round, super-wide rim like a half-circle cross-section. There is no bite to speak of. The cup is shallow, but it was hard to play - I sold it to a friend who is often overseas, so chances of borrowing or buying it back to have scanned are low. Asking Amati to buy a new one resulted in "Klier makes our current mouthpieces"...so acquiring one is probably out of the question.
The 3 and 10 are different than the older cornet versions, but still respectable.

@zetka said in Amati-Kraslice - the ones we love to hate?:

@ConnDirectorFan Unique prospects! I am having some of the Amati trumpet older MPCs, by my amateur feeling they were made more by the older VB flatter rim (my subjective feel). I know some of the unusual ones such as the double cup H2W (something like Selmer Special), but I did not meet the RM1. As far as I have few RMs Made in the USA and Made in England and although they have the same description, they are quite different in size and look (17C,19C and some 18M). Do you have the MPC prospect complete to see it in full? I miss there the some of the standard ones, such as 1, 1C, 1 1/2C etc. I miss there the 7E, 7CW etc. I played them about 40 years ago in the 80s and I am returning to them to find, that they are really not bad sounding.

Another interesting piece - this "R1M" imitation of some Rudy Muck mouthpiece, which is visible in the 1963 Lignatone catalog

@zetka said in Amati-Kraslice - the ones we love to hate?:

@ConnDirectorFan All given links contains quite complete and really invaluable material, because even in Amati itself they do not collect those old paper history prospects from communist era, so unfortunately you can not dig any more information about certain model from the old production there. It is very evident, that the export of AMATI musical instruments was very important for the company and the state itself as a source of foreign currency, which was a great need.

That was the goal! I agree with everything you said; their current US distributor has found that Amati have a clean slate every decade or so, leading to discontinuity we see here. The hard-currency export mission outweighed the documentation, it seems, as only two brochures had censorial marks indicating the year...! Amati-Kraslice, 1976 per censorial mark [scans] was one I forgot to include, but it establishes a hard date for obscure variations.

So now it's possible to cross-reference models with the catalogs! There are plenty of oddballs that don't quite conform [mostly early models], but it's now easy to see that the infamous "Conn Director grip ring" basic stencil is the Lignatone 2400 or 2401, later Amati-Kraslice 2440.
Bell garlands vary from the smaller ones on early Consul 2360 and Lignatone/Amati 2404, the Supertone 2503/2543 with a large garland, the flat-rim 2444 often co-labeled Bohland & Fuchs, the roll-past rim Arioso Super B-2580 [like the Buffet/Evette horns made in Germany], etc.
Cornets can be linked to the long-model 1200/B-1037, mid-length 1210/1250, shorter 1900/1910/B-1040, "Wonderphone"/"Connquest" tuning-bell 2551/B-1038, and of course the pocket cornet 200P, later B-1041/ACR-241.
Flugelhorn is usually 226...