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    ConnDirectorFan

    @ConnDirectorFan

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    Best posts made by ConnDirectorFan

    • Amati-Kraslice - the ones we love to hate?

      This is my attempt at piecing together a chronology of Europe's infamous band instrument manufacturer. I'll have to go back through later, but this is a start. I hate to admit that I own more of these than I should, partly due to my fascination with their designs inspired by Conn, ranging from simple aesthetics like the "grip rings" on the valve casings, to the design of pistons similar to the barrel-spring type in Victors and Connstellations.

      While they still exist [since 2012 as a division of Geneva Group UK], they don't have much in the way of records when I inquire about past models, and they've mentioned their serial "list" is vague before the 1980s, when they implemented computer record keeping. There isn't much in the way of English-language material, but Brasspedia details the founding of Amati-Kraslice pretty well. Unfortunately the photos I saved sometimes went missing, and the early horns are a hodgepodge of parts and suppliers. It doesn't help that there are a few sequences in use that often overlap...

      October 17, 1945 - Amati cooperative of musical instrument manufacturing is established, with representatives meeting in the cafeteria of the F. X. Hüller company. The co-op also consists of "a total of 322 [firms] producing musical instruments...Josef Glassl, Bohland & Fuchs, Julius Keilwerth, A. K. Hüttl, Franz Michl and Kohlerts Söhne" - some of these trademarks will be used alongside the Amati name for several years

      1948 - Communists take full control of Czechoslovakia, nationalizing industries and continuing consolidation, which was complete by 1952

      This interesting bit was in a HUC thread until it disappeared, wit this summary on the Amati page. Keilwerth family members were retained to assist with operation - "Max was retained by Amati to consult on the integration of the cooperative. He remained at Amati until 1951. He would have had connections to all of the former German suppliers and to new firms run by his former workers, and could easily have subcontracted work there - particularly in East Germany", explaining the occasional Amati trumpet with Made in Germany on the top of the receiver, in the manner of really early Böhm-Meinl trumpets, as well as a distinctive type of valve block used early on.
      In other cases, the Amati name appears on a wide range of prewar designs, likely just finished instruments made with leftover parts. Pigtail crook peashooter trumpets, rimless "Vocabell" peashooters, octagonal bell trumpets, all sorts of others...

      Amati kept using its constituent firms' trademarks, and in the case of Keilwerth, continued making saxophones in the same sequence with no changes. Keilwerth argued that their family owned these trademarks, but Amati countered in stating they were the "legal" corporate successors, who inherited the rights to the name. In 1955, the European Court in The Hague ruled in favor of Keilwerth. Hüttl was also awarded compensation for what Amati had seized in 1945-6. I don't know how Karl Fuchs of B&F fared, since the B&F name appears on Amati horns into the 1980s, and Fuchs died in Germany in the 1960s...

      Meanwhile, Czechoslovakia was re-industrializing under a Five-Year Plan, on the Soviet model. That said, the state managers knew that musical instrument export was a great way to get much-needed hard currency [Dennis Gazarek, Elmar here, and a number of others echoed that], and they could build upon the network of small craftsmen building from parts milled out in the central shop as "showpiece" horns, called "Meister Trompete" in a 1970s-80s catalog. This was a continuation of the earlier model, just under state control. I thin they began churning out their infamous designs by the end of that plan.

      While musical instrument manufacturing was prioritized, Amati quality still suffered under the command economy. I recall Elmar mentioned the "brass" used contained more impurities than Western brass, since it had been recycled from Soviet artillery shell casings containing high amounts of lead, primed with mercury [!!!]. The Soviets didn't see a problem with that [look at the tolerances on their weapons in general], and Amati instruments probably have half their issues due to the materials used.

      The serial numbers appear in two major sequences: I call the first the "mass-produced" series, and the second "Meister series". The first is recognizable by the large numbers stamped on the left-hand side of the 2nd valve casing, perpendicular to the cap. The Meister series usually has 2-piece valve casings [sometimes with nickel upper sections], a model name indicating an attempt at a pro design, and a small number stamped parallel to the bottom cap of the 2nd valve casing, left-hand side, near the cap.

      In some cases, a horn has the mass-produced valve block and serial, but with a second number stamped around the receiver, fitting in the Meister series - my "semi-pro" Arioso Super is one of a few like this. I wonder if they sent these parts out for assembly by trusted, experienced craftsmen [rather than workers slamming parts together en masse - I have a Legrand cornet with bent valve guides, no slide ferrules, and slide legs/tubes not even parallel].

      ca 1953 - Amati is retooled for mass production, introducing new designs which they will make for 40 years
      The infamous trumpet with "Conn Director valve grip rings" appears here, and the existence of models with Toneking on the bell means that they were made prior to Keilwerth winning the lawsuit in 1955

      The earliest "mass produced" model I found was a Grafton trumpet, made for Dallas of London, serial 519. It was purchased used in 1963, and it had apparently been around for "some time" before.
      My list mixes the ones with letter prefixes [which appear to have East German parts and are rare] so I'll have to go back and prune that.

      These continue until the 800000 series. I presume they hit 999999 and started over [000019 is the earliest I can find of that sort], still in that sequence today.

      They occasionally tried to make horns that weren't complete junk - the Arioso Supers are particularly gussied-up, with Olds-style 1st and 3rd triggers, nickel slides, reverse tuning slide, a sort of "Italian rim" where the edge of the bell goes over and past the wire a bit [not quite a garland, though the crappy Legrand has one, and several B&F ones have flat rims].

      The Meister trumpets appear under names like Consul [which has a 1st valve slide on the left like Nova/Hayes], Festival, Senator, Excelent [sic! they really spelled it that way], etc. These aren't at the level of classic Conn, Bach, Yamaha, etc. but are usually more...stable than their low-end counterparts. These were assigned model numbers in the 1980s, and probably stopped when they ran out of parts in the 1990s or so. I can't find much on them, and it doesn't help that horns marked Czech Republic have serials just below others marked Czechoslovakia of the same model...!

      In 2012, Geneva Group UK purchased Amati - they had already sourced components, and it apparently was best to just buy the factory. The newest pro horns apparently are nice [the first they've made to a high level in 80 years...?!] and even have bi-metal bells, something only seen on rare models like the Amati-Kraslice ACR-700 cornet.

      posted in Historical Database
      ConnDirectorFan
      ConnDirectorFan
    • RE: Amati-Kraslice - the ones we love to hate?

      @conndirectorfan The embarassingly-bad serial list...
      https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B125S8bNnBMTN1lldHNqMWJJY1U/view?usp=sharing

      posted in Historical Database
      ConnDirectorFan
      ConnDirectorFan

    Latest posts made by ConnDirectorFan

    • RE: Taiwanese Trumpets

      @havetrumpet Interesting; thanks. The only 1600 series Jupiter I've played is the 1600I Roger Ingram trumpet. Nice player, great high register and projection, but the horn brand-new came with gritty valves [good thing it was insurance money paying!] that hung up a lot. After getting them lapped and cleaned, they work all right - I prefer my King Liberty or Conn 61B a bit more at times for their brightness, but the 1600I isn't too bad.

      posted in International Board
      ConnDirectorFan
      ConnDirectorFan
    • RE: Taiwanese Trumpets

      @havetrumpet Is Harmonie made with their own valves, or do they source from another maker? I'll see if I can find anything on them

      posted in International Board
      ConnDirectorFan
      ConnDirectorFan
    • RE: Amati-Kraslice - the ones we love to hate?

      @conndirectorfan https://www.gumtree.com/p/trumpet/amati-trumpet-flugelhorn-model-afh201-/1394366448 source

      posted in Historical Database
      ConnDirectorFan
      ConnDirectorFan
    • RE: Amati-Kraslice - the ones we love to hate?

      @conndirectorfan Lucked out and found a rarity with its original inspection/warranty slip! This is model AFH-201, the standard flugelhorn, which appears to be from March 1998 [1.3.98 - note 15 Oct 99 above], serial 865738. Note the older style milled caps and buttons and plastic case with older-style latches and "smoother" exterior than the later molded cases.
      For reference, 862346 is an ATR-303 Festival type dated Jan 1994 - hard to say how the serials all line up, but this puts the reset around the 1990s...so far...

      5bee065f-cf54-4c69-bb8d-82486540eca0-image.png 43eb0cd8-f9b8-4139-8ece-ba5fb40122ae-image.png 5dda4d27-4c34-448c-a3d8-ebb9674d80b6-image.png 7a8fca42-c768-4690-85c8-8b7a286e6119-image.png f9625a0f-4842-4f79-ac35-2a2befdd3c7f-image.png 452698a8-8083-41fb-83bf-91a2b8654448-image.png

      posted in Historical Database
      ConnDirectorFan
      ConnDirectorFan
    • RE: Amati-Kraslice - the ones we love to hate?

      @conndirectorfan For the sake of a starting place, I estimate [assume] they started their main sequence around 1950. Some of the features here appear on that Toneking based on the same design, likely one of the last with that name [due to Keilwerth lawsuit, which Amati lost in 1955].
      The 500000s appear with direct references to the 1970s - the York 76 Bicentennial specifically. Let's just establish this hypothetical range for their brasses:

      0-500000 - 1950-1970, so 250000 instruments per decade, 125000 per 5 years - I don't think they started right in 1950, but the only catalog with pre-war-looking models is that Ligna a.s. catalog...
      This seems to line up with some attested purchase dates, though Amati is the kind of thing handled in decades...I wish I knew when they introduced that Microbor looking piston.

      0-125000 - 1950-1955 [roughly]
      125000-250000 - 1955-1960
      250000-375000 - 1960-1965
      375000-500000 - 1965-1970
      500000-625000 - 1970-1975
      625000-750000 - 1975-1980
      750000-875000 - 1980-1985
      875000-1000000 - 1985-1990*
      I've never seen instruments in the 900000 series, but I've seen plenty with leading zeros [0xxxxx] of some length, making me wonder if they rolled over and dropped the initial 1 to keep things 6 digits?

      so
      875000-000000 - 1985-1990
      000000-125000 - 1990-1995
      125000-250000 - 1995-2000
      250000-375000 - 2000-2005*
      I've not seen new Amatis past the high 200000s yet, and this doesn't reflect production inconsistencies or the Meister series at all...! Woodwinds are a different mess entirely; apparently they continued from Keilwerth serials at first...

      posted in Historical Database
      ConnDirectorFan
      ConnDirectorFan
    • RE: Amati-Kraslice - the ones we love to hate?

      @gloucestre Those look great! I had a strange flugel-shank mouthpiece that matches your description and looked like the one there; I thought it might be Amati-Kraslice since the Small Morse flugel-sized receivers on cornets apparently weren't accidental...!

      The flat folded-over rim looks like that of the B&F-Amatis that appear for a while; the rolled tube edges, pinky hook, and the serial look like "older" Amatis I've seen. The stamp above the serial might be some production code but I can't make it out. Unfortunately it's hard to pinpoint an exact year, but it'd wager it's late 1950s.

      posted in Historical Database
      ConnDirectorFan
      ConnDirectorFan
    • RE: Amati-Kraslice - the ones we love to hate?

      @gloucestre bdd941a5-b940-43be-8aeb-479f0faf457c-image.png
      Photos still aren't loading - I'm not sure what you're using [looks like Google Drive or Photos?] but the permissions or links aren't right. I tried several proxies and archiving tools but they all have the same general effect.

      6fbbc585-bbec-4dab-9985-2e1ea6db1667-image.png

      posted in Historical Database
      ConnDirectorFan
      ConnDirectorFan
    • RE: "Mica Matic"

      The "Made in Western-Germany" pieces, like Apollo, Lyle, etc? I read a reference that they were early Lausmann products [they started in 1945-6] but don't have access to it anymore

      posted in Mouthpieces & Accessories
      ConnDirectorFan
      ConnDirectorFan
    • RE: Rudy Muck

      Who made the valves for Bohm-Meinl, Gebr. Alexander piston brasses, "German Yorks"? I was always under the impression that those horns, such as York 75, York National, etc. marked Germany were from Bohm-Meinl. But the piston type varies...sometimes it's a Blessing-style piston, other times a simple exposed-spring with a flat washer, and the valve guide is just a screw in the piston surface [like the cheaper Weltklangs and others]. Sometimes the spring is outside, but with a larger center post and a smaller washer. The most complicated

      B&M serial? The photos are bad but the stamp has small font, and a bit jagged - https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rudy-muck-trumpet-158047/402628943279 - the 7M Balanced vs. the Buffet-Crampon horns with 6-digit serials, since 4-digit is usually Modl

      This 32M looks like the low-end B&Ms, with the odd sculpted bit in the middle of the valve casing - https://reverb.com/item/20865498-vintage-rudy-muck-trumpet-32m-mkiii-with-vintage-case

      For comparison...balanced horn with B&M looking serial? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-c-1970-Buffet-American-Trumpet-X-Large-Bore-Great-Lead-Horn/143903779629
      https://www.ebay.com/itm/Evette-Schaeffer-American-trumpet-for-restoration/233841180190

      Modl serial? The casings and stamp look like it - https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rudy-muck-trumpet/224233748499

      This guy looks like some late 1950s A. R. Huttls I've seen, with the stamp near the bottom cap, beefy casings, trombone waterkeys, and bell profile - http://www.rudymuck.info/images/5ccombo.jpg

      This 32M is from Amati-Kraslice! http://veryrarebrass.com/rudy-muck-32-m-dallas-london-vintage-pro-level-b-flat-trumpet-very-rare-horn/

      posted in Historical Database
      ConnDirectorFan
      ConnDirectorFan
    • RE: Amati-Kraslice - the ones we love to hate?

      @oldschooleuph such as this? https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/742529 or http://www.antonius.cz/en/productdisplay/bb-trubka-amati-consul-vk1735 or https://www.odkarla.cz/trubka-consul-amati-kraslice [Fotogalerie]

      https://www.antonius.cz/sites/default/files/tr_vk1735.jpg

      I remember seeing [what I considered] Art Deco features on many of the pre-100000 horns, and this distinct pinky hook appears on some co-branded horns like B&F: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Amati-Kraslice-B-Trompete-Versilbert/124284915476

      For reference, the few Legrand photos I have on hand: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1G2KgnW7PlawnfyMzwRacV58KYTmYNwHY?usp=sharing - the U looks like what I've seen stamped on older-looking horns [and visible letters near serials don't appear too often on Amatis]

      B&F co-branded horns appear into the 600000s at least

      posted in Historical Database
      ConnDirectorFan
      ConnDirectorFan