The Serpent

[SSmith1226]

Youtube Video

[Zzorse]

The serpent played well,

[barliman2001]

And the illegitimate love-child of the Serpent was the Ophicleide...

[Trumpetb]

Ancient instruments often look dated and weird however when played well in a small ensemble in a drawing room or modest sized concert hall they usually sound intimate reserved gentle and angelic.

What have we lost in the last 500 years by abandoning utter beauty in our endevours to sound modern progressive and robust

Thank you Steve, Zzorse, and Barliman

[barliman2001]

We are getting more and more modern... I present to you the

VALVE OPHICLEIDE!!

With Vienna Valves...

[barliman2001]

And one more clip of the weird and rare...

[SSmith1226]

@barliman2001
More on the Cimbasso and its history.
Youtube Video

[ROWUK]

My personal opinion is that we have lost NOTHING. The trumpet has been evolving/transforming about every 50 years and that the issue is more about what the contemporary view of what is acceptable. The end of the baroque era brought the requirements of chromatics that the natural trumpet could not fulfill. An additional handicap was classical modulation of the key signature that ruled out "mean tone" instruments. Initial attempts to get the trumpet chromatic sounded HORRIBLE, that resulted in it losing its "solo instrument" position in the orchestra and it wasn't until the late 1800s until further developments enabled the trumpeter to recapture melodic superiority. With the advent of recording technology, the requirement of security drove the creation of shorter instruments (in Bb, C, D and Eb). In Germany around 1900 the Bb trumpet common today was called the "high Bb" trumpet and the orchestral players using the deep F trumpets commented on the thin sound and lack of color of those Bb instruments. They lost the battle.
Rediscovery of Bach in the 1920s and 1930s drove development of smaller bore high D, Eb, F and G trumpets. Jazz drove additional changes to the Bb as did raising concert pitch to A=440. Charles Mager bringing french C trumpets to Boston was an additional change. After the second world war, the volume war started. Symphony orchestras (especially the brass) got larger bore instruments to get a "darker" sound that fitted in the orchestral fabric better. Unfortunately, that development increased the loudness, driving orchestral pitch up to the current A=442/443 to make the woodwinds brighter to compete. The string sections got strings that were also much louder.
Now, to get back to my original premise: trumpeters never had any need to ignore history or lose certain playing techniques. This was and still is their own choice. I listen to recent symphonic brass recordings of Gabrielli and wonder why nothing has improved since the 1960s when Philadelphia, Cleveland and Chicago created their legendary recordings. The reason is choice and ignorance. Ed Tarr and many others have made historical performance practice popular and accessible. Choosing to ignore what has been learned is my definition of ignorant. There is NO REASON FOR A MODERN PLAYER TO NOT ENCOMPASS THE ORIGINAL INTENT OF COMPOSERS FROM ANY ERA. Everything is freely available in our information age. I do not need a cornetto to play Gabrielli or a natural trumpet to play Bach. I do need to understand performance practice, phrasing, articulation and blend to serve the original intent however. It is there for the taking as long as we are not too proud to bend over and pick it up!
We can learn a lot from these pioneers.

[Trumpetb]

I do not disagree with anything you have posted ROWUK however for myself I hear great beauty in ancient instruments.

You mentioned the Cornetto and I have some experience and knowledge of these instruments so I feel I can speak on the topic.

For example a Cornetto played in its traditional setting in a church or a cathedral with an organ accompaniment is a beautiful thing.

There is a seductive sweetness and beauty in the tone of a well played Cornetto that I have never heard in any other instrument.

Of course modern instruments are wonderful and highly developed and sit well together in an ensemble and sound wonderful in a modern setting and playing from a modern score.

But my point was and is that the ephemeral gentle and sweet alluring tone of the ancient instrument appears to have been lost in the shuffle over the last 300 years.

Is the modern instrument better, yes it is, it is in tune with itself it is consistent in tone across its range it is relatively easy to play well in all registers and its wide dynamics are helpful in developing expression.

The old instruments have issues with inconsistency of tone difficulties in controlling pitches and dynamics and sometimes it feels they fight us. But that was not really the point these inconsistencies are part of the charm of the instrument.

For all their faults the music made on these instruments is compelling and addictive. I have played recordings of ancient instruments to various members of the public and without exception they have declared the ancient instruments to have great beauty of tone.

Today for example I played a cornetto recording to a lady of advanced years and she told me that her hairs stood up on end when she heard the instrument and it touched her in her soul.

I also played a recording to a young man of around 17 or 18 and he declared it to be surprisingly beautiful.

Of course that can happen with modern instruments but it happens repeatedly and often with the ancient instruments.

I firmly believe that we have lost something precious by leaving these instruments in their cases and exclusively playing on modern instruments.

You are right ROWUK we have gained a great deal in the development of our modern instruments but we have also lost something.

It is however easily fixable by our simply obtaining examples of these instruments and including them in our practice, and I intend to do this and I hope that perhaps other members might consider doing the same.

[Dr GO]

What have we lost with our modern instruments?

[Trumpetb]

@Dr-GO

Hi Dr GO, its like if we talk about fruit for example

If we stop eating pomegranates, because other fruit is easier to eat and less messy.

Yes the modern fruit is easier to eat and less messy and less effort, but the unique taste of pomegranate is now lost to modern generations who dont taste the pomegranate.

many modern instruments and the Cornetto in particular have a unique sound that is simply unavailable in any other instrument.

What have we lost, we have lost the sound of the old instruments that we cannot hear at all anywhere else.

Do they sound good or bad, if they sound bad then good riddance to them but if they sound unique and beautiful it would be folly to abandon them.

Are we right to abandon these old instruments and never hear them or play them, that is a personal choice.

But it is like Apples, many varieties that taste wonderful have been abandoned over the last 100 years, and now they are being rediscovered and people find they prefer the older apple varieties that are more difficult to grow and crop less.

If you abandon something unique you lose it.

That is what we have lost, the unique sounds of ancient instruments.

And sound is what we musicians should be defending, all we have is our sound.

We should be defending unique and beautiful sounding instruments and they should sit alongside modern instruments if we choose to place them so.

[ROWUK]

@Trumpetb My point is that we do not NEED TO PERFORM WITH the original instruments to get the original intentions of the composer. For some people, myself included, learning and performing with them does however, offer additional palettes of color to use.
As the trumpet through its history has changed about every 50 years, I would place most of the "blame" for lost technique and tone clearly with the trumpeters. Even in the Jazz genre, how many players just noodle around without really embracing the various periods in jazz? How many can play a convincing Bix or Dizzy chorus? What about a whole evening of 1920s jazz (or 1950s for that matter). Sure, we may hear some licks that apply, but a whole evening? The same is true with cornetto choruses called diminuation. It is not a hard concept, the patterns developed over time and also applied to a certain extent to the baroque period.
The ignorance that is displayed - even by some (if not many) professionals, is simply laziness not lack of sources, information or role models. It certainly is not hardware based. There are even courses to build your own cornetto or natural trumpet.
I would not consider anything lost rather ignored.

[Trumpetb]

@ROWUK

Again we do not disagree

My perspective is that my musical taste is classical jazz blues reggae pop baroque folk choral.

My tastes are eclectic and I love it all.

I love barbeque I love burgers I love cordon bleu I love hearty farmhouse meals and party food.

Strawberries are a wonderful end to a meal but I would not eat strawberries all the day long.

I love modern instruments I love ancient instruments I love a sprinkling of Cornetto amongst a diet of more modern fare.

My own experience shows that BIX can stand as an equal next to Chuck Berry or BB King or Black Sabbath

I am quite happy with a mix of all styles without needing 3 hours of BIX on his own.

But you know a sprinkling of BIX among more contemporary music sounds wonderful and yes I dare to say it, a medley of blues jazz rock pop and choral sounds great to audiences.

Yesterday I played a 1925 BIX composition on a period trumpet from 1924 with a period mouthpiece from 1892 and it was totally loved.

And I do believe that if I had played a Serpent or a Shawm or a Cornetto that would have been loved just as much as any 2022 acoustic guitar.

It is not what you do it is the way that you do it, thats what gets results.

[Dr GO]

@Trumpetb said in The Serpent:

@Dr-GO

What have we lost, we have lost the sound of the old instruments that we cannot hear at all anywhere else.

Are we right to abandon these old instruments and never hear them or play them, that is a personal choice.

If you abandon something unique you lose it.

That is what we have lost, the unique sounds of ancient instruments.

One of my oldest horns is a 1946 Martin Committee, my newest is a 2017 Harrelson Summit. BOTH play exceptionally dark (when I want the Harrelson to do so) and BOTH peal paint when playing lead (Dizzy played the Committee as I am sure you know). I have not abandoned either. I play in small jazz ensembles with the Committee as I do not need to work so hard in those venues, and the greasy transition of the Committee is a virtue in those gigs.

The Harrelson, has the Committee sound (uncanny and spookily identical with the Harmon mute in), but I have to work half as hard to get lead playing results and it projects so well so it gets the big band nod for that reason.

[Trumpetb]

@Dr-GO
I love your descriptions of those instruments, one of my aspirations is to own both a committee and a Harrelson, - amongst others but we cannot own them all and I suspect I have too many instruments already

I am totally with you on the merits of each of those very desirable instruments.

I feel that the unique tonalities of a shawm, a serpent a cornetto are quite different to instruments such as a modern trumpet a modern cornet flugel or tenor horn.

The way ancient instruments sound is not the way modern instruments sound, and that is not simply a result of the manner in which they are played, it is a mixture of the responsiveness of the instrument the way the notes articulate the softness and dynamics.

It is a little like the difference between a Piano Forte, and a Forte Piano. The Forte Piano responds differently to the Piano Forte.

The Piano Forte has an iron frame robust strings and felt covered hammers, the Forte Piano has a wooden frame thin harpsichord strings and leather covered hammers.

These differences make the two instruments sound quite different and yet they are both pianos.

To abandon the Forte Piano to history and never play it is to lose the unique sound of the Forte Piano.

Equally the vihuella and the guitar sound quite different but I think there is a case for playing a vihuella in a small ensemble in a modest venue.

I believe there is a case for preserving all instruments that have and offer a unique tonal palette as ROWUK puts it.

When I select a trumpet or cornet for a gig I also select the mouthpiece. I match the mouthpiece and the instrument to the music and what I am attempting to present in my performance.

We can mold our tone and our sound from the huge palette available to us.

In brass instruments I have broadly speaking 168 choices of tonal palette at my fingertips.

That means I can be very expressive in a wide range of compositions.

Keeping the ancient instruments and using them simply adds more options to our palette.

I can for example make a trumpet sound like a cornet, simply by manipulating my tone, but it makes sense to play on a cornet when I want to sound like a cornet and save the effort.

If you want to sound like you are playing a shawm get a shawm.

On the other hand if you do not value the ancient tone or sound then play exclusively on modern gear.

[administrator]

Each genre of instrument goes well with the specific genre of music that was created with it.

I can enjoy a period piece on either a centuries old (replica) natural trumpet, or a modern Schagerl Piccolo trumpet. Different sounds and different reproductions.