Good trumpet upgrades?

[Lake Serperior]

Hello, I have had the same trumpet (Yamaha advantage trumpet ytr200ad) since I started band. I in high school now, and I'd like to upgrade. I have found some trumpets that I will link below, and I'd like an opinion on if they are a sufficient upgrade, and if so, an opinion on how do they compare to other trumpets.

Cannonball: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2671869696441140/

Blessing:
https://rmn.craigslist.org/msg/d/rochester-vintage-blessing-ml1/7444299499.html

Silver Flair: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/320280146543035/?ref=facebook_story_share

[Kehaulani]

So, you're looking in the $700.00 - $800.0 price range? What's the going price of your Yamaha? If I were you, I'd wait until I can spring for the $1,200.00 price then and then have a field day.

[J. Jericho]

@lake-serperior Welcome to TrumpetBoards.com!

Depending upon your abilities, goals, and budget, a generic answer would be to check out Bach Stradivarius Model 37 and Yamaha YTR-6335. These are versatile, quality trumpets that will accompany you on your musical journey indefinitely.

The ones you mentioned are probably playable upgrades from your present horn, and there are a number of vintage horns that could meet your needs as well or better. Good valves are a must; otherwise you'll have to spend $450 - $600 to have them redone. Be aware that almost any used horn will need a bit of relatively inexpensive repairs, so it would be wise to budget accordingly.

We're always here to answer any questions you may have.

[ROWUK]

My advice would be to FORGET VINTAGE TRUMPETS at your stage of development. Generally, we need a primary instrument that blends well, is in tune and has an easy blow. Vintage trumpets mostly sound different, might not even be optimally in tune (many were built for a lower pitch than common for today) and could even be an issue for getting into ensembles. In addition, old trumpets are exactly that - old and unless they have been fully restored, you may have mechanical issues.

You will do yourself a great favor by saving up and getting one of the more "standard" models: Yamaha 6xxx, B&S Challenger, Jupiter, Bach 180, Getzen 900. You will be rewarded with an instrument that will not be in the way later in your "career". The problem is that players get passed over because of their instruments not "blending" - without anyone telling them. I have a Bach C trumpet for ensembles that "prefer" that standard sound - even although it is not my favorite instrument. I would rather keep the gig instead of "proving a point" where only I lose.

That being said, once you have a solid every day "go to" instrument, additional horns can increase the available colors. If you are into jazz, there is more room for "individuality" after you have found your own voice

[barliman2001]

Think about the B&S Challenger series. They are very good Bach clones at a much lesser price.

[Kehaulani]

To Rowuk's list, I would add Schilke, probably a B-1 if you can find one at $1,200.00.

You might also like to try a:
B&S.
P, Mauriat
Jupiter
Getzen Capri

But, try first.

[Shepherds_Crook]

@lake-serperior said in Good trumpet upgrades?:

Hello, I have had the same trumpet (Yamaha advantage trumpet ytr200ad) since I started band. I in high school now, and I'd like to upgrade. I have found some trumpets that I will link below, and I'd like an opinion on if they are a sufficient upgrade, and if so, an opinion on how do they compare to other trumpets.

First, I'm glad you are on the forum. Second, it is cool you are still playing and enjoying trumpet + wanting to upgrade your axe. If you aren't currently doing so, spend you money on trumpet lessons from a good teacher. Beyond increasing your skills, they are going to be a great resource for 'your next trumpet' too. Third, isn't it time to practice? Yes! Yes, it is! Forth, go and play as many horns as you can (go to ITG this summer, if you can) and see what you like. Then discuss with your teacher. Njoy!

[Furcifer]

If I had to pick one, I'd go with the Cannonball, hands down. The ones I've tried have all been great playing horns for the money - easily better than the other two you listed - and no doubt better for what I do these days. Full disclosure - I'm a local pro, usually playing the Lead book in rock and big jazz ensembles, with a good enough established residual income that I don't have to depend on it to eat healthy meals or put up with Bach snobs, LOL

But speaking of Bach snobs: For better or worse, you can play whatever you want, and I'm certainly the last to suggest that the ubiquitous Bach 180S37 is the "best horn" for anyone - it may very well not be - and it's definitely not the best horn for me, now. But after playing one for over 40 years before I switched to my current Stomvi a few years ago, it's probably the one brand/model out of everything I've seen and played in all that time that nobody could ever "blame" anything on. All the esoteric bull you'll hear about "blending" is much more often more about the actual actual player's sound concept than the horn, and/or just bias because they'll put their preconceived ideas on hot standby as soon as they see you pull "something else" out of your case. The unfortunate reality is that there is still a lot of bias out there among directors and professors against anything outside of "what they know", and all too often, ALL they think they "know" is that Bach was king for many years, and that you still can't hardly go wrong with them now. Many of them aren't even trumpet players. It makes me nauseous to think about it at times, but there's no denying that the 180S37 is still the "safest choice" for students, because students are always potentially at some dogmatic Bach snob's mercy, who only really knows what they've been told by some other Bach snob. It's actually the most common facade to cover the fact that they do not and never will have a good enough ear and/or an objective enough psychology to ever discern anything else for themselves. And I've unfortunately witnessed far too many students advised to sell whatever they have - some were even magnificent-playing collector horns - to get a Bach. It's never the other way around. But that - and the fact that they still don't sound like Bud Herseth - is how we know it's mostly esoteric dogma. 99.99% of them can't pick out the Bach from ten similar models in a blind test, but they depend on parroting the opinion of that 0.01% to keep anyone else from finding out. And I've also seen students treated as somehow "less serious" until they complied. Yamaha and various others have made serious inroads and accomplished a great deal to help break that down, but it is still a refuge for those who are quite relieved to have it as such.

Good advice in these other comments, too - it's always best to spend your money on lessons and work with a teacher who can help you identify your true playing goals, the models of horns that will help optimize what you do well and better facilitate improvement in weaker areas, help you realize and consider all your current and future playing commitments - including the NEXT schools you are likely to attend in your area - and probably help you find more value for your money in the long run, whatever your budget is.

[J. Jericho]

@furcifer

[Kehaulani]

Uh . . . O.K.
Just to make this clear, I have never been a Bach man and have played non-Bach horns (and (mouthpieces) my entire career. So, I surprised myself when I encountered a Bach 190-37. For ME, its sound is very rich and adaptable to all my playing situations.

If someone has the coin and is looking for a new horn, I suggest checking the Bach Anniversary out. You don't like it? Fine. But I suggest you leave your reverse prejudice at the door and see how it lives up to the other candidates.

BTW, I do not play Bach products.

[Newell Post]

@furcifer Also note that most HS students don't have the experience to effectively differentiate between pro-level horns. Bach is the safe, if uninspired, choice for most HS students wanting to progress. At the college level, many players have the ability to differentiate and decide on the best horn for them: maybe Bach, maybe something else.

[ROWUK]

@furcifer I am not sure that Bach Snob is really a valid generalization. Most of the trumpeters that I know and have known, play what they play and certainly NEVER picked their horn for snobbish reasons. There is a reason that Bach is popular - it simply sounds good. Great core and blend. Easy to play (well most of the Bb are) and their reputation is built on that sound. There was a time when almost nothing else was found in the major symphony orchestras. Players that trained the current generation of top teachers - many of which have switched to Yamaha. Fast forward 30 years and we now see that Yamaha in fact has taken the lead - in student, intermediate and pro trumpets. Schilke has jumped on the same bandwagon - with the HD model. The B&S Challenger series also shares a similar core sound.

My point was that a vintage trumpet is not necessarily a good choice for someone in high school and that a generally accepted "standard" type instrument is a better base instrument. Certainly Bach has withstood the test of time (including hard times) - can we say that about the defunct Martin corporation? What happened to Holton, Buescher, Conn and Olds? Where are Selmer Trumpets today? They did not die because of snobbery.

I am a professional in Europe where Bach is generally not the instrument of choice. My main piston axe is a Monette Raja C trumpet, my second most used piston axe is a Bach C trumpet that I bought in 1975. I play far more rotary and valveless instruments however. Still, in the best interest of a student, we do need to consider things, even if we ourselves have the freedom to do other things.

[Furcifer]

@rowuk I didn't say actual "trumpeters" were Bach snobs (although there are some, their opinions are not what counts for very much in the paradigm I'm referring to) - I said there are directors and professors that are. These are people that students have to deal with that are in an authoritative position where they can freely exercise their bias, unchallenged, and students are powerless to argue with them, especially if it's not overt. But I personally know of a number of students over the years who were effectively forced to sell their horn because they were either directly or indirectly informed that they should buy a Bach if they wanted to be competitive - or even just treated fairly at annual collegiate ensemble auditions. On the other hand, I've also never known a student who was ever directly or indirectly pressured to buy any other brand or model in quite the same way.

Bach milked their holy blessing from the Chicago Symphony for decades, even after quality and consistency had more than a few suspect production runs. This bias was and is largely a US phenomenon that has been gradually and thankfully going away - as you say - especially in the professional orchestras, largely as a result of the last 30 years of Yamaha's pro and student market penetration, as you mentioned, and the fact that most of the worldwide trumpet player community is online now and thankfully doesn't, overall, hold with these old-fashioned brand biases anymore. But such purely-professional cultures like pro orchestras are always quicker to change than any level of "education" culture - any public school teacher can attest to their own half of that, LOL
But my point is that there are still a few tenured dinosaurs around the country that can go so far as to literally block a student from finishing a degree, indefinitely, should they happen to get crossed up with them, and playing a horn they don't like, however petty it seems, can end up being just one more strike against them.

Then again, if it ever gets to a point where everybody is being told to buy a Yamaha "just to be on the safe side" with orchestral auditions, that's really not a better situation, either. But perhaps it's inevitable. Somebody is going to be recognized as the best player in the best trumpet section in the best orchestra and whatever they play starts becoming a de-facto standard. This is why horn makers curry endorsements from pros, and always will. Everybody who is NOT that "pro", and is unsure, can't really tell a big difference or doesn't have anywhere local to try horns, is more likely to just order what that "pro" plays, OR buy whatever their teacher says to buy, and all he knows is what he himself plays based on what everybody used to say 30 years ago when he was in college, LOL And when you go audition, you either have what the judges "know" to look for - based on that same kind of thing - or you don't. And since everybody auditioning is often more than "good enough", it often comes down to purely subjective hair-splitting.

Here's the funny thing - I'm also a rep for a relatively new brand of high-quality, low-cost school instruments. Our main "beginner" horn is a Yamaha 2335 clone, and our main "intermediate" trumpet is a Bach 37 clone.
All we make are various different grades of "student/intermediate models" - mostly for schools, right? Why did we pick these two models? Again, unspoken de-facto standards. And a lot of that is driven by brand familiarity/loyalty/snobbery or whatever you want to call the general ignorance and fear people have of "other" brands - it amounts to the same thing on the marketing level.
But we're very successful because the simple FACT is that it's not just B&S or Schilke who can copy "the Bach core sound" - or that of just about any other famous, 'preferred' wind instrument model. So maybe that says something about changing attitudes (when the price is right). We found the easiest way to get the Bach sound at a lower cost is to just copy the whole horn, and use higher technology and more automated processes to ensure better consistency. And in fact, our CEO found out that anybody COULD do it - with a relatively high degree of quality - if they just WANTED to - and guess what? Even Bach has incorporated SOME of these things (but not our lifetime warranty!). Bach doesn't make anywhere near as much "in-house" on a Bach Stradivarius as they used to, and every other "Made in USA" brand/model is using the same seven factories in China for everything they can get away with, too - which is quite a bit more than most people are aware of. But whether other brands want to market a "Bach-like" model or an outright clone at all - and what their price point is - depends on their own brand image and business model. Most brands are not strictly in our "school-quality" market niche, and they have a lot more middle-men involved in their supply chains and management.

Since you mentioned Selmer - you realize all Bach has to do is put their parent company's roll-stamp on the bell, and suddenly it's a "Selmer", LOL! Same with Conn. They're all the same company. They're just different lines of manufacturing, i.e., just different models now, not really different "brands" anymore. But if they suddenly started stamping "Conn-Selmer-Bach" on all the Strads, Vintage One's and Claude Gordon models, mark my words, it would just be the "Bach line" models that people would lose their minds about and be suspicious of "quality" going to hell (again), LOL And if Conn-Selmer-Bach really admitted what percentage of their parts that are actually made in China, people's heads would explode.

[ROWUK]

@furcifer we do not, or did not disagree.
As far as getting market share, there are a lot of factors involved - many having nothing to do with quality.
I still maintain that a "vintage" trumpet is not necessarily a good choice for someone in high school - unless someone can responsibly confirm intonation, valve condition and playability beforehand.

My first instrument was a 1911 Holton Long Cornet that I inherited from my grandfather in the late '60s. He used spit and water instead of valve oil and the condition of the valves certainly were a "problem". I was lucky and had a trumpet playing music teacher that worked with my parents to get me another horn in excellent playing condition. It was like pulling the cork out! Now 50+ years later, I am still performing professionally (with other horns). With the playing handicap of the old horn, who knows what I would be doing today.

[Kehaulani]

Maybe I'm talking out of school, but I get so tired of wading through polemical rants on the internet that have very little to do with the original question. The guy just wants to know what a good horn would be for, probably, community band playing. He's not going to be playing with Herbie Hancock, the Chicago Symphony or as an entering student to The Juilliard School. I feel sorry for what a cat has to wade through.

[administrator]

So, I've played a number of the Cannonball trumpets and have been impressed. I'm not a fan of the stone series, but the other, more classical oriented trumpets were pretty good. I believe they are made by B&S and then modified by Cannonball in Salt Lake City.