Posts made by Sound Advice

@Dr-GO said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

@Sound-Advice said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

...the elasticity of the vibrating point on their upper lip isn't conducive to working well in a forward jaw position ON EXISTING STOCK TRUMPET MOUTHPIECES!

Sound advice... could you elaborate on this comment... and reflect on what mouthpiece adaptations may assist in vibratory performance.

Doc,

Okay it just dawned on me that I didn't fully answer your questions. Nor even touch upon the mouthpiece adaptation I found both necessary and pivotal. Yes the mouthpiece adaptation was absolutely necessary. That and it is an extreme design albeit one with at least a first impression that bears an unappealing characteristic.

The mouthpiece has a huge inner rim dimension. Approaching an inner rim diameter of around 7/8ths an inch. Or roughly 0.875. Whereas standard m/piece averages around 0.625 to 0.650.

While some people might think that this looks too weird to use. Or funny looking it really doesn't appear much different than a regular mouthpiece. This because the rim contour is quite narrow.

Despite the great size of the inner rim diameter I found it very easy to blow high notes on.

More later.
(later).

How I approached this system.

After the embouchure injury of 2018 my entire upper register was gone. This happened on my receded jaw chops. The one that I'd originally learned the Maggio system on back when i was just a pup.

The Stevens system takes everyone like a beginner. Whatever way you used to play? Well i think that in most cases you can forget everything you used to do. Basically the embouchure change is often as foreign as learning to write with your weaker hand. However this is the condition we all started in when we were kids.

Our chops were virgin. A fallow field. Everything felt tricky. So it may seem with Stevens.

However most who try Stevens will squeak high Gs and double Cs their first day to a week.. If they get good guidance. This is what I did. A chronology starting from just this past Thanksgiving Nov, 19.

Day 1. Formed a rolled in "lip clamp" that utilized air pockets under my lower lip abd above the upper. Did these on largely dry lip conditions. Point here was to get a piece of notes between High C to High G or higher better yet. Just squeak the damned things. A piece of the note.

(since I used to experiment with this system in 2010 it wasn't a complete mystery. And yet I'd still lost most of my embouchure technique. Whereas in '09 & '10 I could hold Es and Fs over double C until running out of air? The ten years off had removed my whole ability to even sustain one of those extreme pitches for a mere split second.. . Let alone nail the darn thing like I used to...)

Day 2. I worked that small squeak of a high G down to a small piece o f high C. Then after practicing but ten mins i called it a day. As a new embouchure needs lots and lots of rest. Then in the afternoon I went to work on my lathe and cut a mouthpiece with the described 0.825 inner rim dimension. Presently I construct the cups of these with "solid epoxy" purchased from places like Lowes. It's both a strong adhesive (when bonding to the raw brass of a mouthpiece) but easy to shape & sand after it hardens.

Through small errors in my craftsmanship I made one piece with a slightly deeper cup on one side. However I found this beneficial. Since I was only experimenting I flattened the opposite outer rim opposite of this smell "divot" The flat bottom of this rim made it easy to locate the top part of the piece. Also my lower lip kinda prefers this straight line.

The whole rim has a very thin contour. Although since inner diameter is so big the thin rim dies not cut but instead helps to grab onto high notes.

Week 2: Worked that squeaky thin high G down G/staff. Important! Used breath attacks only!! A new embouchure is often far too weak to take the powerful jolt of the tongue. We don't worry about playing wet or dry lips. Using which is easier.

Okay Doc I'll elaborate more per your request.

@Dr-Mark said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

@Sound-Advice said in Lifetime quest finally paying off!:

However it has long been observed that cats who blow with those forward jaw (and erroneously labelled "upstream") embouchures tend to be at least a little less resonant than the receded jaw playing cats.

---

Oy! I play with my jaw out to there my upper and lower teeth are even and people say I have a rich, fat sound (unless I'm channeling Miles Davis).
In simple terms;
Do you pucker or say "MMMM"?
Where does your tongue go once you're above high C?
Does your bottom lip go over the bottom teeth (just slightly) when in the upper register?
I'm a high note loggerhead from way back and I really don't have any issues when it comes to range. I've been playing DHC's for decades and if I have a beer or two, I'll spit out a THC (No, not that THC) Triple High C.
My guess? We probably do the same thing but have different ways of explaining how it works.

That's a fascinating response. At first I thought that I was done for the day. That my last post took too much out of me. Stick a fork in me cuz I'm done. But you reply brought me out of that fog.

There's no absolutes regarding big sound vs small sound. The "Forward plays smaller, Receded blows bigger" is just a general tendency. Again, not something absolute like "fires need oxygen".

On my new chop setting which will be the one I'll play the remainder of my days I'm doing sort of a Farkas "puckered/smile".

I don't exactly pull my lips left and right but instead ACTIVATE those muscles which would create a smile if I let it. Similarly I slightly push my chops forward a bit to create a softer cushion and to counteract any thinning of my chops possibly caused by the "smile". This at least fits my description of a "puckered smile". In turn its probably not far off from Farkas. Also Severinsen has described this condition at least once. "Pushing forward and pulling back at the same time". I believe is his quote on video somewhere.

Of course Doc is a rare rare case. I mean his chops are soo cool and he's such a determined hard working musician. Kinda a "walking Rembrant".

Now with this puckered smile I then place mouthpiece on my face with lips close together though usually not quite touching. Soon as I make the placement I LOOSEN that "smile" formation. At least loosen that portion of my upper lip that had been part of the "smile". The rim of the m/piece LOCKS out my roll-in. Limiting it to only those muscles remaining outside the rim. This was a VERY IMPORTANT FINDING for me once upon a time. A principle is going on here that I'd like to cover later...

Only that portion of my upper lip that resides inside the cup of the m/piece is the part that stays loose and supple. And it'll remain in this relaxed condition (INSIDE the cup of the m/piece) in all registers. Even when up in the "trippa" notes.

By the way, I've only recently returned to playing this embouchure since last Thanksgiving or so. Previously I'd put it aside. "On the back-burner" for about ten years. Until it recently dawned on me what the missing part was.

I oughta state that ten years ago when I was working in earnest upon this system I had a decent triple C I could actually sustain the pitch on. That and a Double C I could hold for almost 30 seconds. No foolin! So it certainly had potential. However it had one dirty little secret. Maybe I shoulda made you guess what that was except? Well? Okay I'll tell ya.

Despite such magnificent range? I couldn't articulate well. It was as Reinhardt once wrote in his encyclopedia a chop "setting that fell apart after my tongue "moistened the corners" of my chop"...

This time around I've finally solved that problem however too. So allow me to take inventory here,

1. Musician/trumpet player, turning 65 at midnight HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ME!
2. Former strong lead trumpet on receded jaw or "downstream" chops. Good to high G for decades.
3. Suffered debilitating chop injury Aug 2018 and decided to screw around with alternative embouchures. Finally settling on this Stevens system hybrid that I'd put on the back burner in 2010. This I started in late 2019.

So I roughly have 3 or so months on it this time around. Although my range hasn't quite returned to the Triple C I'm closing in on the note almost day by day. In fact during my first time around (the one ending i n 2010) it took me close to 3 years to start making that triple C happen. Today I'm sometimes able to slide up to F and G/DHC. So that's certainly acceptable progress. Not the quality of Rashan Ross perhaps but gettin there. And frankly F/Double C is plenty. My original goal was just to defeat my high G cut-off. Also I'm convinced that the trippa C is only a matter of time in development.

Now,

About "rolling in".

My new system utilizes a roll in prior to mouthpiece placement. After setting the piece I RELAX that portion of my upper lip resting inside the chops. I don't know if anyone here will relate to what Im about to mention. Yet during this,

"Puckered/smile, Placement, RELAX upper lip inside mouthpiece rim I like to visualize a,

"Bow & Arrow"

Being pulled back prior to setting,
Released when starting The Blow*.

Now be advised that I'm not advocating nor using a "smile" system. But rather the activation of at least some muscles you could use in a smile. More importantly I'm also pushing forward with some facial/lip muscles to create a thicker cushion. To prevent exhaustion due to mouthpiece pressure and endurance issues.

Another term I've used to describe this "archer" or "bow & arrow" condition is what I like to call,

"Pre-loading for range". Or "pre-load high notes". By adopting this mouthpiece setting technique I've created fantastic LEVERAGE into the extreme upper register.

Okay I gotta post this unfinished matter. Will check for typos in a bit. Because I fear a computer crash..

This pre-load is part of the "bow and arrow" principle. Or the "Yin/Yang". I have another
"bow & arrow" principle for breathing that works marvelously for lead playing. So by creating this "fulcrum" and loading up the embouchure's capacity to blow high notes I can usually pop out G's and A's over high C with roughly the same effort I once used while blowing notes an octave lower on my former, receded jaw embouchure.

By the way, while using the "Pre-Load For Range" I'm simultaneously observing ALL if Stevens-Costello's physical laws. These described in the 1971 oublication known as,

"The Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique and Embouchure Self Analysis".

Dig this,

Its a poorly written book. This is not the fault of the editor Dr William Moriarty either. He actually wrote the text but did so under the direction of Roy Stevens. Despite the poorly sequenced chapters and at least a few contradictions between Costello and Stevens texts?

This book is damned close to the holy grail. Again, it failed for many people inc myself Originally that is. However I decided that the reason why I couldn't make it work was due to the natural STIFFNESS in the texture of much of my upper lip flesh. This I've apparently fixed by constructing a mouthpiece with a much larger inner rim dimension.

And I'm an honest man. I freely admit that I haven't perfected this. Then again please realize that Ive only been practicing this method since last Thanksgiving. Now, how many rank beginners do you know who can easily play A/high C? Also, you can tell from my technique that if not a pro quality type? That I have a professional tone. My fingers are fairly quick. And I can improvise.

At present I'm sort of both a manufactured "Frankenstein". "Building a new trumpet player off the dying/dead corpse of the old one". Frankly speaking my former receded jaw embouchure failed because I just used too much arm pressure for way too many years.

As per roll in? I think someone wanted to know if I roll in or pooch huh?

Okay as I described above most of my rolling and pooching out occurs prior to "The Blow". Afterwards I control the pitch or register through changing my jaw position. Essentially MILDLY closing my teeth to ascend. Lowering BUT NOT RECEDING to descend.

As is typical of Stevens-Costello I do not utilize any raising or lowering of my tongue for register changes. I'm thinking those common "tongue arch" or "Tongue Controlled Embouchure" are more applicable to "puckered out" or "rolled out" chop settings. This I know because I have fooled around with puckered OUT chop settings. And during these experiments I did notice that a mild manipulation of my upper lip could make a high note speak easier. However I've since finding a path that finally begins to really work? Well I've thrown out other methods.

Incidentally here's one additional nugget that I believe is probably universally true.

When we "roll-in" to ascend? We're probably rolling in ONLY our lower lip. While most books that encourage a roll in describe this motion as including a roll-in of both lips? I assure you here that to roll in the upper lip "on the fly" so to speak will always result in choking off the tone.

Try it if you insist. While I do actually roll in my upper lip a bit? This is all done PRIOR TO SETTING THE MOUTHPIECE. Afterwards only my lower will roll in. It's really the only one that can when you think about it. At least while you're still blowing the trumpet.

And since I've been on the Stevens System I use very little roll in of the lower lip either. This us because the doggone chop system is already "loaded fer bear" when it comes to high notes. Only taking a slight firmness in the mouth corners and the mildest of teeth/jaw closure to ascend into the extreme upper reaches.

Chris LaBarbera once told me that some of these "upstream" (his word not mine) types have chops so efficient that blowing a double C is about the sane lip energy as the rest of us use playing G/staff. That just by increasing the air pressure and with a mild push from the gut they can play three octave intervals about as easy as most of us play Mary Had a Little Lamb.

Dr GO,

Thank you for your response. I'll get back to you tomorrow. As now? I really am burnt out. Appreciate everyone here! You've all been so nice. Esp since I'm so new to the forum.

@Dr-GO
Thank you for your interest Dr GO,
Granted my belief that the variance in texture of one man's upper lip to the next is kinda tricky to prove. I can just say that it sure seems reasonable to me. It is my contention that those whose upper lip flesh is quite soft and elastic may likely find that the trumpet is easier to learn than it is for the next guy.

If we go to the mirror and examine our own mouth and lip flesh we will see a considerable difference between say the inner lip texture vs the outer. Or a big difference between the regular facial skin and the "red" of the lip. Indeed quite a number of brass playing systems that teach high notes are either intentionally or subconsciously trying to get us to "pooch" out more inner upper lip flesh into the mouthpiece. Maggio was well know for this. And in the early days of my career Louis Maggio's "monkey lips" pucker brought out my first truly good high notes. High G anyway. It wasn't until some years later that I discovered this to be a "finite" or limited range setting for me. While I had better high notes than most amateurs I had to use WAY too much physical effort to blow at the top end of my range. And while I had played at least a few impressive DHC's in my life? I pretty much had to kill myself in order to get the note out.

Clearly I needed to make an embouchure change to a setting that allowed extreme high range but without the miserable high G cut-off point. Nor with the damned extreme effort and bright scarlet face when I blew.

Part 2,

Before going on I'd like to mention that I prefer not to use terms like "upstream" or "downstream" when examining trumpet players. I mention this because of my preference for dividing these groups into what I call "receded jaw" vs "forward jaw" trumpet players.

Donald Reinhardt being the originator of the Up/Downstream categories. And while his work was valuable we ought remember that Reinhardt was a trombonist. A much easier instrument than the trumpet. I hate to criticize his work but heck I even know of a highly distinguished pro and former student of his who disagrees on some matters espoused by Reinhardt.

Dr Go,
I don't know if you've analyzed the quality of tone common to receded jaw vs forward jaw trumpet players. However it has long been observed that cats who blow with those forward jaw (and erroneously labelled "upstream") embouchures tend to be at least a little less resonant than the receded jaw playing cats. And while the forward jaw playing cat may not have as big of a sound? He often plays with great ease in the upper register. An important classical trp who played with great ease on a forward jaw chops was the late Rolf Smedvig. In the jazz/commercial field our noted "easy playing" forward jaw chops included Brisbois and Doc.

I don't mean to digress but it ought to be noted that there's a substantial difference between "loudness" and "bigness".

And our receded jaw fellows though while often having really big sounds? Tend to have unfortunately low cut-off points. When I used to blow receded jaw I cut out at high G or concert F and lemme tell ya. This a source of great frustration.

Okay I'm going to finish this post in a spell. Experience has told me that on long posts I risk computer crashes. BRB.

Part 3.

So WHY is the forward jaw trumpet player usually displaying a smaller or less sonorous tone? A couple reasons I think although again hard to prove.

We know that the forward jaw cat usually plays with more lower lip than the resonant upper. The upper lip is the vibrating one. So with less upper lip in the mouthpiece its almost like by playing this way he's using a shallower or smaller mouthpiece cup.

And the other reason seems to be that the forward jaw embouchure lips stay alongside each other for a longer lateral distance than the receded jaw cat. This is both a help and a hindrance. The longer aperture channel helps the trumpet player CONTROL the aperture so as to allow those very short oscillations.

Shorter vibration = higher pitch.

The downside here (and I think that this ought to finally answer your question) is that the longer aperture channel requires A MORE ELASTIC UPPER LIP TEXTURE!

BINGO!

That my friends is the explanation for why the Stevens-Costello system couldn't fit everyone. At least as it was written.

But this didn't make Roy Stevens wrong. It just made his method INCOMPLETE!!

In my 55+ years of playing trumpet which includes over 50 years of embouchure and breath support research I have (at least to my own satisfaction) finally explained what was missing from Stevens-Costello. Again Stevens wasn't wrong! He just didn't understand the considerable variance in lip texture from one cat to the next. And if he didn't understand that?

He certainly couldn't be expected to fix the problem in his students. Now if you're interested?

I'll explain the change required in Stevens system to those who politely ask me in private message. I haven't copyrighted my explanation yet. So am loathe to just lay out the nugget of information it's taken me until the age of 65 to finally figure out. While I highly doubt anyone could successfully steal my ideas without having the background knowledge necessary to pull it off? It still seems wise to proceed with some caution.

Hope that this provides a suitable response to Dr GO's query. And I hope that he appreciates it. Because it sure took me long enough to write it out today.
Thank you!

@Dr-Mark

At present what is being taught to almost all young trumpet players is what Roy Roman refers to as the "Evolutionary Approach". He doesn't condemn it per se because I think that he sees the value of the standard long tones and other beginning technique exercises.

What Roman appears to find remiss in the Evolutionary Approach (let's call it "EV") is that there is no insistence upon the beginning trumpet player forming his embouchure in a position which Roman calls "correct". Correct according to the principles laid out in the course of study found in the Stevens-Costello system. This once long ago presented to Roman by his mentor Roy Stevens.

Now of course as soon as words like "correct" & "incorrect" get thrown around the trumpet community is almost certain to blast those using the terms. The complaints will come in statements like,

"No one embouchure fits all". Etc.

Probably some truth to that too. Another lump of coal feeding the critics is that the Stevens system didn't seem to work well for everyone. We used to have graffiti written in the upstairs practice room at the conservatory that read,

"All that Roy Stevens has is a lot of brass player's money".

And yet despite all the criticism and even though initially this method didn't work well for me?

I still hold the belief that the Stevens-Costello method is fundamentally the most correct way to both play and teach the trumpet. The only inherent weakness to the system is that it wasn't aware of one certain condition present in a lot of trumpet players. This being that the elasticity of the vibrating point on their upper lip isn't conducive to working well in a forward jaw position ON EXISTING STOCK TRUMPET MOUTHPIECES!

I'm about to stop here unless anyone has questions. But will be glad to continue in response to anyone having a follow up question. In closing I just want to point out that after I finally discovered the missing link to Stevens-Costello last November?

I've had consistent improvement in tone,control flexibility etc since. But instead of being a beginner with ordinary range? I'm now a beginner with fantastic range. Able to "sit" on notes around double C. This not a "brag-share" here today but a "please keep open minded about the Stevens system" type of share.

@Kehaulani
I left out that I actually had pretty good lead chops on my main embouchure. Fat sound up to high G. From most trumpet player's perspective I probably had plenty enough range as it was.

However I really wanted to break through the high G barrier.

I'd probably disagree with your statement regarding the considerable number of systems that produce more immediate results. As the Stevens system seems to be the only one describing a near guaranteed production of unlimited range from the very start. In fact even mere beginners on the Stevens system first learned to blow very high notes.

Granted that Stevens has some imperfections. As there simply wasn't enough time during either William Costello's or Roy Stevens life to adapt the principles to ALL trumpet players under all conditions..

I've certainly tried almost every system. Initially locking into some fat high notes with the Maggio system. Later I tried Reinhardt and some others. At best all that they could do was marginally improve certain elements of my existing embouchure. Like gain a little more endurance. Or a little more accuracy. None however could remove the block that I had at high G.

Again, with few trumpet players, on average building a strong upper register most of my peers could never understand why I wanted more range. In as much as I certainly did have a strong, useable upper register. It just wasn't an unlimited one. Meaning that It didn't have triple C capacity.

I think that this brings up another useful question,

"How much range is ENOUGH"?

Herb Alpert got wealthy beyond imagination and never even played a mere high C on his records.

Chuck Mangione fared quite well with just his concert pitch High C.

And I already had at least a clear perfect fifth over Chuck but wasn't satisfied. What I wanted was unlimited range. The ability to wail away accurately on Fs and Gs ABOVE Double C. My goal was personal. Not professional. No one else cared that I didn't have much of a double C. It wasn't costing me gigs either.

First post. Without going into a lengthy bio? Have finally found a workable path to the extreme upper register. What I did was discover how to correct one of the deficiencies in the famous "Stevens-Costello Embouchure Technique".

Stevens-Costello is a forward jaw embouchure capable of unlimited register. Triple C and higher range. Problem was? It didn't work for everyone. In my own early days working it I had to quit twice. As I couldn't get a big sound and it didn't articulate well. Wasn't until a few decades passed that I finally found the reason for my inability to pull off the technique. The "secret" seems to be with correcting the lack of elasticity in the vibrating surface of my top lip. This I accomplished by constructing mouthpieces with over-sized inner rim dimensions. While previously I had used ordinary mouthpieces but these had produced only a thin character of sound on the Stevens System.

As I continue to recover my chops from a terrible injury in 2018? I will try and keep the gallery here informed of my progress. Also if anyone is interested in either the original Stevens-Costello System and/or my adaptation tp it? Feel free to ask. And I will try my best to explain.

Currently Ive only been back on this chop system since last Nov 2019. Although this isnt exactly a correct statement. Previously I had put in about.five years on the system. From 2004 thru 2009. So much of my development during that failed period came back within a few weeks. Then after implementing the correction(s) to the system I've caught on to this embouchure. It oughta be only a matter of time when I'll feel comfortable posting sound or video clips.
Best regards!
Lennie