PLEASE KEEP CIVIL!
-
@ROWUK said in PLEASE KEEP CIVIL!:
@OldSchoolEuph said in PLEASE KEEP CIVIL!:
So the issue is civility.
...I am criticizing what I see: paler shades of gray. If that is what the community wants, cool for the community. I am trying to get to the meat of the issue here. I do expect more response - especially from those with "more power". Luke warm is NOT an option (neither is war).
I think a pinch of spice applied just in the right places will support perfect civility (formal politeness and courtesy in behavior or speech). Spicing up the conversation, I believe, enhances the understanding. I believe there is currently a good stability in the mental health of this community, that I am hoping we evolve in the direction of context described above by Rowuk.
-
This is almost Zen like. Looking at the finger pointing at the moon instead of looking at the moon, itself.
We seem to spend an awful amount of time talking about how we should talk about things trumpet/musical rather than talking about trumpet/music itself.
-
@Kehaulani said in PLEASE KEEP CIVIL!:
This is almost Zen like. Looking at the finger pointing at the moon instead of looking at the moon, itself.
We seem to spend an awful amount of time talking about how we should talk about things trumpet/musical rather than talking about trumpet/music itself.
Ah, but if you look at that moon with a broader perspective of civil discussion, you see that moon with more clarity.
-
@Kehaulani said in PLEASE KEEP CIVIL!:
This is almost Zen like. Looking at the finger pointing at the moon instead of looking at the moon, itself.
We seem to spend an awful amount of time talking about how we should talk about things trumpet/musical rather than talking about trumpet/music itself.
I certainly agee Kehaulani. The art of communication (lets say between a teacher and student) is vital in finding common ground to lead the student to better awareness on how to build better habits. With Corona, we see increased attempts to give lessons on line. I really question how effective this can be when I am not in the same room with the student.
Just imagine a student asking how to produce vibrato - in a 1 on 1 lesson, in a lesson with 6 teachers each with a different opinion, in trumpet forum.
The single teacher in a private lesson would (hopefully) demonstrate, explain the context, history of the different types - as well as showing that certain music does not need it at all.
The group of qualified teachers “compete”. The lead trumpeter has his thing, the symphonic player another, the teacher without a lot of practical experience yet another - even although all of those teachers have a valid opinion, what does the student understand?
Advice in a forum is a two edged sword as advice appears often with no regard to what the student even can understand or the qualifications. When the posters with advice disagree, it can get emotional - especially with “snipers”, “lack of psychologically sound moderation”, frustration, differing levels of qualification, class clown. It is a question if everyone posts thoughtfully, if they post to get their post count higher, if they need the forum as a vent for personal issues. I see on most posts that the original posters intention is lost at the latest by 4 or 5 “answers”.Let us take another instance: I had an accident last year and lost some teeth. I now have full lower dentures - but never openly asked for advice here. Why is that? To be honest - for the reason that some liked my posting at TrumpetMaster - I asked questions first to get to the root of the issue instead of just vomiting an answer immediately. Are there any members that have a process for comparing dental creme including how long it lasts, resistance to coffee breaks, strength of the bond vs time, research on Articulation against plastic instead of teeth, I could think of many more issues to compare. I am sure that from the first 10 posts 6 would frustrate me. That certainly would influence my ability to keep my “civility” at the lowest common denominator. Maybe I have the wrong expectations. When I go to a doctor with a pain, I am not looking for a pill or a couple of days off. If the pain is acute, perhaps treatment to gain time until the proper diagnosis is possible.
The discussion here in this thread is exemplary of something far different. No one asked why escalation occured - “Keep it Civil” is just a bandaid - a lame attempt to keep an infection from spreading. I would insist that a band aid on top of a festering wound is not the best solution - although for a while, out of sight is out of mind. We may need some time until a diagnosis is possible, but I do not see the questions even being asked.
Believe me, the loss of TrumpetMaster was a good and bad thing. For me, it means a lot less time invested (which is good for many other things). Even although many of the same members moved here, the “depth” and “color” are the issues that I see as needing the most attention.
We could start with what a member has to tolerate instead of what ball and chain membership applies.
Example:
My definition of “ignorant” is not an insult, rather a description of someone that chooses to IGNORE the truth. If I call someone IGNORANT, it is a straight to the core issue description of lack of base to communicate. I am sure that me calling someone ignorant here would be considered “not civil”. However - when I do use the label ignorant, the discussion generally goes immediately where I want it to - addressing the problem (ignorance) instead of continuing the drivel.Keeping it civil is a result, not a rule in my world. In college, there were ways to challenge a professor and ways to get thrown out of class. They were based on procedure, respect and content.
-
@ROWUK said in PLEASE KEEP CIVIL!:
… it is a question if everyone posts thoughtfully . .Amen to that. I was following a post on another forum. For all intents and purposes, the question was answered in the very next post. Yet this went on for three pages, with redundancy and got further detailed and esoteric, sometimes with a post that is three inches long. What the heck is behind that?
The discussion here in this thread is exemplary of something far different. No one asked why escalation occurred - “Keep it Civil” is just a bandaid - a lame attempt to keep an infection from spreading. I would insist that a band aid on top of a festering wound is not the best solution - although for a while, out of sight is out of mind. We may need some time until a diagnosis is possible, but I do not see the questions even being asked.
I don't think there's a need to overqualify this word. Every body here knows that "civil " means. It's just a matter of how far someone wants to push it.
Example:
My definition of “ignorant” is not an insult, rather a description of someone that chooses to IGNORE the truth.You're playing with words, Robin. Regardless of how you receive the word "ignorant", it was not something benign and up to various interpretation. The poster of that clearly meant that as an insult, as if he were talking to a person who didn't have a clue.
-
@ROWUK said in PLEASE KEEP CIVIL!:
The discussion here in this thread is exemplary of something far different. No one asked why escalation occured - “Keep it Civil” is just a bandaid - a lame attempt to keep an infection from spreading. I would insist that a band aid on top of a festering wound is not the best solution - although for a while, out of sight is out of mind. We may need some time until a diagnosis is possible, but I do not see the questions even being asked.
I don't think we need a diagnosis. The lack of civility was due to one person, and assisted at times by one other person. I don't think the reason for their bad behavior had anything to do with the other members here. They are both gone/banned.
This thread also evolved into "where do we go from here". That's a good thing. But I think it's independent of the bad behavior of a former member.
Mike
-
@Kehaulani said in PLEASE KEEP CIVIL!:
@ROWUK said in PLEASE KEEP CIVIL!:
You're playing with words, Robin. Regardless of how you receive the word "ignorant", it was not something benign and up to various interpretation. The poster of that clearly meant that as an insult, as if he were talking to a person who didn't have a clue.
I see calling one stupid as an insult. There is no chance to improve on stupid.
Ignorant is a label that acknowledges a person is not educated on the subject well enough to convey knowledge but still has the ability to become more educated.
BUT your point Kehaulani is well taken as knowing your audience and their potential sensitivity to hearing the truth (the goal to communication) is important. At the medical school I never gave feedback to a medical student that they were "ignorant" (of course many were... that is why they were in medical school). Rather I would let them know they had a "knowledge gap" and in so doing, the student was: A) More receptive to doing the extra work to correct this gap and Not likely to report me to the Dean for unprofessional behavior.
-
@ROWUK said in PLEASE KEEP CIVIL!:
@Kehaulani said in PLEASE KEEP CIVIL!:
Just imagine a student asking how to produce vibrato - in a 1 on 1 lesson, in a lesson with 6 teachers each with a different opinion, in trumpet forum.
The single teacher in a private lesson would (hopefully) demonstrate, explain the context, history of the different types - as well as showing that certain music does not need it at all.AND... Sometimes the approach is totally out of character, aggressive, yet civil and the student "Gets it"! ROWUK's comment reminds me of the store of Miles Davis, where he was so proud of playing vibrato (self taught) by listening too closely to copying Harry James. His teacher scolded Miles for doing this, actually rapped him on his hand with a hard object, and Miles NEVER played vibrato like this ever again... and the rest is history.
-
This post is deleted! -
Just curious where you guys saw this info about Miles and Harry James? Miles #1 idol was always Pops as far as I have read.
-
For some reason, my edit shows up in the editing preview block but doesn' show up on my post. Therefore . .
For Quincy Troupe in his biography of Miles, he said:
"Mr. Buchanan stopped the band and told me, "Look here, Miles. Don't come around here with that Harry James stuff, playing with all that vibrato. Stop shaking all those notes and trembling them, because you gonna be shaking enough when you get old. Play straight, develop your own style, because you can do it. You got enough talent to be your own trumpet man."